Defensive Shooting Question

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:

Read your own post here. Why on earth would you want to shoot from the hip in a crowd? You already addressed that you could wind up shooting over a crowd and obviously care about the consequences. You have absolutely no control over where that bullet is going and could easily hurt non-threats. Shoot IDPA or another defensive competition and you'll quickly find that hip shooting is NEVER a good idea. Think about the fundamentals of "aiming", technically a hip shoot IS NOT aiming in any sense of the word. It's actually point-shooting and from a weak stance and weak grip at that.

Even most LEOs will tell you that the hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot and should only be utilized in extreme close quarters where BG is attempting to wrestle your unholstered firearm away. (can you say B.U.G.?)

That said, IF you're left with considering that as an option (it could happen after all couldn't it?), get a Crimson Trace unit and sight that thing in dead-nuts accurate. That little red dot can be a wake up call for some BG's and is nice to know that you're going to be putting the round right in that spot (unless you've knocked the laser out of alignment).

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It is sad, but I honestly believe Jeff Cooper, while well intentioned even if he stole others ideas and called them new, he had good intentions. But I don't believe in a lot of what he said. He was usually fixated on using the front sight. I have talked to exactly no one who has used a handgun in an actual shooting, be it simunitions or real world, and even had their brain allow them to use the sights. There are people out there who would claim this, but I have never met them in person.

It is a well established fact that in a shooting, your brain will instinctively have you point shoot, particularly up close. The grip will be extremely tight, and all of the little minute techniques of a 2 handed grip will go out the way side in a real hurry, which seems to account for the 85% miss rate of police in real world shootings.

Your criticism of hip firing also doesn't take into account that at 2-6' or so, which is roughly the distance of what you can expect in a SD shooting with a handgun, you will instinctively go to hip firing to retain your handgun. Not having practiced to do so would be especially dangerous in a crowd, because a crowd would be a place where your insincts would probably be screaming at you to hip fire.

In praciticing to contradict your instincts, you do yourself a disservice. In preaching to contradict your instincts, you can unknowingly put lives in danger. This is the problem with what I might call the "front sight mentality". Certainly I'm not insulting sight picture shooting, but I believe it should be recognized that it is the exception, not the rule to combat shooting with handguns, particularly in non police circumstances where the goal is merely survival and evasion.

I say these things not in an attempt to be abrasive, and if it comes off that way, I apologize. It is something I take more seriously than most.

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:

Even most LEOs will tell you that the hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot.....

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That's probably because most LEO's (all but 2 of them that I know) only shoot when they must qualify. Their running joke is that most citizens shoot better than most LEOs.

rodbender said:

That's probably because most LEO's (all but 2 of them that I know) only shoot when they must qualify. Their running joke is that most citizens shoot better than most LEOs.

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SOME LE Agencies PRACTICE "hip shooting". At the 3-yard line, Our course of fire started with "2 rounds, 3 seconds", 2 rounds, 3 seconds, 4 rounds, 10 seconds with a magazine change".
Now, I'll describe the sequence: For this part of the course, we were using magazines loaded with 6 rounds. Do the math; you shoot 2 rounds, three times and have to reload and shoot 2 more from the next magazine before the third string of fire is complete. Each string begins with a holstered pistol. The first round is double action, and obviously, the second was single action. Before holstering the pistol, we "decocked" and then took the pistol off safe again. We carried the Beretta 92FS with a round in the chamber, hammer down and safety off.

At that time, all 3-yard line shooting was done from the hip, without sights. You didn't start using your sights until the 7-yard line. At the 15 yard line, we used strong and weak-side barricade positions and a kneeling low barricade. At 25 yards, we used both barricade and non-barricade positions. The course of fire was done on the Trans-Tar II target and was a 50-round course. Minimum score to qualify was 187 out of a possible 250.

I always thought the requirements were fairly low, but I was amazed how poorly LEO's from other agencies did on our course. I did my best to keep my people shooting in the 230-240 range. Other instructors and I would be merciless on any fellow instructor that shot less than 245. Most of us shot 247 or better.

Regardless of caliber, Shot placement is EVERYTHING! I know some people that CC a .22 cal derringer with complete confidence. They firmly believe if the SHTF, they will have no trouble putting one or both rounds from their .22 into the eye-socket or other important point of a BG's brain-bucket. Lights Out.

I've found the Mozambique Drill to be the best self-defense drill. If you can put 2 rounds in the CHEST (5-ring of the TransTar II target) and then one round in the brainbucket, your BG won't have much (if any) fight left in him. Again... SHOT PLACEMENT is everything. This "zipper method" sounds like something out of a Mack Bolan novel. Mozambique has been proven to work... I don't know anyone that disagrees. I have some friends that use 3" x 5" index cards for targets. If you can hit a 3" x 5" card on a regular basis, then you're probably going to come out ok. If you can't, then you better spend more time at the range with a QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, not Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob that may (or may not) really know what he's talking about...
<stepping off soap box now>

SOME LE agencies are more proficient than others at marksmanship. When I went to the National Matches at Camp Perry, the Border Patrol Team always finished well.

MSC 45ACP said:

This "zipper method" sounds like something out of a Mack Bolan novel. Mozambique has been proven to work... I don't know anyone that disagrees.

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I would say that both techniques are similar, except my understanding of the mozabique drill is that you carefully aim for the head after assessing your first 2 shots to the chest. With the vertical tracking, there is no stopping or re-assessing, you merely decide to shoot at the chest and head from the beginning, and do so very fast without any pause.

In either case, it's probably the ideas behind the techniques that are different, much more so than the actual ways they are conducted under stress.

I was never taught "assess the results of my first 2 shots", nor did I teach that method in the Mozambique. I started with emphasis on marksmanship, then on speed. Accuracy is far more important that speed. 3 shots quickly and accurately, THEN assess the situation, repeat as necessary.

I know someone that CC'd a Seecamp .32 cal. He was forced to defend himself with it once. It was in close quarters; He made a single shot into the BG's eye. BG dropped like a sack of potatoes. Not a pretty sight. He's probably still seeing a therapist, but he's alive. He never even felt the trigger squeeze, even though Seecamps have a legendary heavy trigger.

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:

Read your own post here. Why on earth would you want to shoot from the hip in a crowd? You already addressed that you could wind up shooting over a crowd and obviously care about the consequences. You have absolutely no control over where that bullet is going and could easily hurt non-threats. Shoot IDPA or another defensive competition and you'll quickly find that hip shooting is NEVER a good idea. Think about the fundamentals of "aiming", technically a hip shoot IS NOT aiming in any sense of the word. It's actually point-shooting and from a weak stance and weak grip at that.

Even most LEOs will tell you that the hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot and should only be utilized in extreme close quarters where BG is attempting to wrestle your unholstered firearm away. (can you say B.U.G.?)

That said, IF you're left with considering that as an option (it could happen after all couldn't it?), get a Crimson Trace unit and sight that thing in dead-nuts accurate. That little red dot can be a wake up call for some BG's and is nice to know that you're going to be putting the round right in that spot (unless you've knocked the laser out of alignment).

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My second post said that I basically pulled that scenario out of my @$$. The specific scenario doesn't matter, because if I'm hip shooting, it's because I am at a range where I could not miss. If I actually have a chance of missing, the BG is still far enough away that I don't need to shoot from the hip.

Obviously, shooting from the hip is not ideal...in fact, having to shoot at all is not ideal. However, the chances of having to shoot someone inside the range of my arm is high enough, relatively, that it is very much worth being prepared for. I'm not hip-shooting unless I have no other choice. Regarding the laser-If I'm hip shooting, they're too close for me to use it. I'll be looking at them, trying to fight them off as I'm shooting-not looking for the little red dot.

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note:

hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot

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A pet peeve of mine-please use the word 'literally' correctly. Unless you're pointing the gun at your bowels when you make a hip-shot, or you load with some VERY interesting ammo, it is only a crap-shoot figuratively.

Michigander said:

Zipper shooting is a one handed, no sights used method consisting of starting low at about the abdomen or a bit above, beginning blasting, and letting the recoil bring the gun up to head level as you keep going, all of the shooting happening in probably a 1.5 seconds or less. With a major caliber and hollow points, it's an extremely devastating method, easily capable of hitting the spine, then the heart, lungs and brain just as fast as you can pull the trigger.

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And with a Mac-10 or an Uzi, it works just fine. Even with my old .44 Ruger Redhawk, however, I return to center body mass, even when firing off six full magnum loads in less than two seconds.

It's called "gun control."

What you're referring to is an auto technique. It has no place in the world of semi-autos.

Michigander said:

It It is a well established fact that in a shooting, your brain will instinctively have you point shoot, particularly up close.

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This is true.

...all of the little minute techniques of a 2 handed grip will go out the way side in a real hurry, which seems to account for the 85% miss rate of police in real world shootings.

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I'd chalk that up to poor training/technique.

Your criticism of hip firing also doesn't take into account that at 2-6' or so, which is roughly the distance of what you can expect in a SD shooting with a handgun, you will instinctively go to hip firing to retain your handgun.

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You're correct, and officers routinely practice hip firing in order to prepare mind and muscle memory for close encounters.

As for me, when I first start plinking on the range, I'll empty a magazine using my sights, one shot at a time, at the 15-yard range, to ensure I'm on target. After that, it's two shot sets, without sighting, just muscle memory, and some from the Weaver ready stance, others from my holster. I'll evaluate after each set and adjust, until I've expended another mag. After that, it's four-shot sets, both holstered and from weaver ready, including a couple of hip firings for weapons retention.

Having done this for years, out of 50 rounds I always have 45 or more rounds on a human-sized target at 15 yards. Most of the misses are from the hip firings, about which I'm not very concerned, as the only time I'd ever be firing from the hip would be within grappling distance.

Since 9, I vehemently disagree about it being a full auto technique, because it works very well with a semi auto being fired as fast as possible, which is the way I believe you should practice, since it will likely be your reaction in a real shootout. Rex Applegate, who was Mat Temkins source of techniques among many other things, said you should try to fire as fast as a submachine gun. Granted it won't happen, but I do think it's a good goal.

One of my favorite shooting instructors, who by the way is one of the only ones I've come across Ihave almost any respect for, teaches point shooting, but won't get involved in debates like this. He feels that the proof of who can do what best with what technique comes from simunitions and airsoft, which I think is a fact everyone can agree on.

The biggest problem I have with anyone in the shooting world is the gotta do it my way attitude. What works for one person will not always work for another. A vast number of variables like body shape size and strength, gun type, number of aggressors, and other things, they all factor in, and it's downright irresponsible to think of shooting techniques in terms of absolutes.

Lastly, about the 2 handed techniques falling apart, I think the best example is at a full blown run. Sprint don't jog at a target while shooting it with a handgun. Try this with 2 hands, then 1. I have yet to see someone do anywhere near as well with 2 hands, I'm sure they're out there, but I've never seen it. But even people I've taught to shoot on their first day at the range can master 100% kill zone shots from about 7 yards doing this with one hand, sprinting at the target while shooting as fast as possible. As far as I can tell, your body has a much, much easier time pointing one hand at a target while moving (and you'll probably be moving while in a shoot out, unless you wish to die) than having to keep 2 hands and arms flawlessly working together despite body movements.

It's something to try before deciding that 2 hands are a good idea in relatively close quarters.

sultan62 said:

One defensive drill I practice is, at short range, drawing (from OC hip holster) and firing immediately from the hip, then bringing up the gun for a double tap while backing away from the target/threat.

Here's my question: when shooting from the hip, where on the body should one aim? My normal target would be upper torso, which would place the bullet trajectory on an upward angle. This could be ideal if in a crowd, as it would get the bullet above the crowd quickly. However, we all know that it must come down, and this is obviously an unlikely scenario.

So where should I practice placing the round from the hip?

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Can you follow this example from the hip:

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencerreport/gun_control.html

Michigander said:

Since 9, I vehemently disagree about it being a full auto technique, because it works very well with a semi auto being fired as fast as possible.

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It's a sloppy and stupid technique, Michigander. No one trains this way with semi-autos. Not the FBI, not the Military, not Special Forces, not Law Enforcement, not SWAT, and not the Secret Service. :banghead:

I don't know where you're getting your information from (or if you're simply making it up off the top of your head). It's wrong. Whether or not you're in a crowd, the liklihood of stray shots is dangerously and unacceptably high. :banghead:

...which is the way I believe you should practice, since it will likely be your reaction in a real shootout.

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Part of my regimen includes rapid-fire four-shots: BANGBANGBANGBANG, just as fast as I can pull the trigger. Those here who've shot with me at Dragonman's range know this. But I keep my shots on target. I do so for the safety of innocent bystanders, whether they're two feet behind the perp or a quarter of a mile down the street.

So should you! If you insist on wildcatting your "technique," then you're a danger to society, and I'd rather you not carry at all.

eye95 said:

If you want to discuss my ideas on center of mass, please discuss what I said in my post on the subject. My post that you responded to was a response to a bit of antagonism.

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My apologies, eye95 - no antagonism intended.

When firing range instructors talk about "center body mass," they are not referring to the mathmatical definition which is given by 1/M summed for all m[sub]j[/sub]r[sub]j[/sub] throughout the human form.* That would include one's head, arms, and legs, and would indeed place it somewhere just below one's belly button, which is a painful shot, but by no means one with any real stopping power.

Rather, they're referring to a point on the human torso that's roughly at the center of the torso shape alone, and it's technically the center of area, not mass. If you're a more precise shooter and can put it between and below the pecs, so as to get it as high as possible without hitting either the ribs or the sternum of one's thoracic cage, all the better. Even if you do hit the sternum, it's not made of armor. Rather, it's mostly highly vascular tissue, covered by a thin layer of compact bone. Thus, a shot to the sternum is likely to penetrate it.

Back to why all military and law enforcement are taught to aim at center body "mass," meaning the center of the torso, is simple: It's the center of the target. If you aim at the center of the target, you're more likely to hit the target.

*It appears normal formatting for things like super/subscript has been disabled for this forum.

since9 said:

It's a sloppy and stupid technique, Michigander. No one trains this way with semi-autos. Not the FBI, not the Military, not Special Forces, not Law Enforcement, not SWAT, and not the Secret Service. :banghead:

I don't know where you're getting your information from (or if you're simply making it up off the top of your head). It's wrong. Whether or not you're in a crowd, the liklihood of stray shots is dangerously and unacceptably high. :banghead:



Part of my regimen includes rapid-fire four-shots: BANGBANGBANGBANG, just as fast as I can pull the trigger. Those here who've shot with me at Dragonman's range know this. But I keep my shots on target. I do so for the safety of innocent bystanders, whether they're two feet behind the perp or a quarter of a mile down the street.

So should you! If you insist on wildcatting your "technique," then you're a danger to society, and I'd rather you not carry at all.


My apologies, eye95 - no antagonism intended.

When firing range instructors talk about "center body mass," they are not referring to the mathmatical definition which is given by 1/M summed for all m[sub]j[/sub]r[sub]j[/sub] throughout the human form.* That would include one's head, arms, and legs, and would indeed place it somewhere just below one's belly button, which is a painful shot, but by no means one with any real stopping power.

Rather, they're referring to a point on the human torso that's roughly at the center of the torso shape alone, and it's technically the center of area, not mass. If you're a more precise shooter and can put it between and below the pecs, so as to get it as high as possible without hitting either the ribs or the sternum of one's thoracic cage, all the better. Even if you do hit the sternum, it's not made of armor. Rather, it's mostly highly vascular tissue, covered by a thin layer of compact bone. Thus, a shot to the sternum is likely to penetrate it.

Back to why all military and law enforcement are taught to aim at center body "mass," meaning the center of the torso, is simple: It's the center of the target. If you aim at the center of the target, you're more likely to hit the target..

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Given the hit rate of average government agents, I find it strange that you place such a high value in their techniques. Praising a roughly 15% hit rate isn't the sort of thing Id go around doing, doesn't make a lot of sense. Furthermore, saying I shouldn't carry at all has to be one of the most petty and absurd things I've yet heard someone say to me on this forum for challenging their beliefs that there is more than one way.

If you can't understand the idea that out to a standard self defense distance of very, very rarely more than 12 feet, vertical tracking or the mozambique method can and will work extremely well to score plenty of good hits while centering your aim to pretty much walk the fire to the head, it would seem you are not qualified to be engaged in this conversation.

Just dos centavos from an old dinosaur but there is way to much over thinking here. Anything between groin and clavicle is a target, point is to get as many rounds into that target as possible as long as the threat is still a threat. As far as us dinosaurs relying on sights, well yeah, its the way we trained. I have only had to shoot fast twice, both times it was a one shot deal, both times the round went exactly where I wanted it to go, once at 3 yards, once at 10 yards, (best guess). Just because I don't remember acquiring the sights and using them don't mean I didn't. the shots were to good and I do not believe in luck. The second time it was left handed because I had just broken my right arm earlier in the day and it was in a cast and sling. I could be wrong but I really believe you will do as you train and my few attempts at trying to learn point shooting were abysmal failures. Like I said, just Dos Centavos from an old dinosaur who doesn't believe in luck and doesn't believe it is time for pin point shooting when its fighting time.

okboomer said:

In the tactical classes I have had, when retention shooting, the drill was to shoot as soon as the muzzle was pointed at the subject, then 'walk' the impacts up to 2nd button hole, then the T-zone if subject was still standing and considered a threat.

The theory as explained to me was that the impacts on a male body were going to largely begin below his center of gravity and when passing into the abdominal cavity would likely damage any of several large arteries or veins, starting blood loss with the accompanying onset of shock. Along with this was the impact(s) that would also interfere with his center of balance and hopefully imped his forward progress.

When this was further applied to the female body, there are massive arteries and veins in the lower abdomin (uterus) which could result in massive and quickly debilitating blood loss.

As to whether or not to back up during a situation, it was largely dependent upon the area. We practiced retreat and advance during this exercise. For retreat, however, it was stressed to keep both feet on the ground, shuffling each foot back to minimize danger of tripping.

While blood loss and onset of shock are not reliable methods of deterrance, they can be debilitating very quickly, so can be a method of stopping the subject. As the instructor said, "Don't shoot in the belly and then stop and wait for them to fall ... ain't gonna happen."

And during all this, you should be moving to one side or the other in an attempt to increase the subject's difficulty in shooting/knifing you in return. And if you have loved ones to protect (probably behind you), you cannot retreat unless they are making tracks away from the danger. YMMV

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Hi, okboomer. I'm guessing that you're a woman or your instructor was a woman - or there was a female doctor/nurse in your class.

There are indeed violent female criminals out there. As a general rule they almost always prey upon other women.

And you're right about the uniquely female area of vulnerability in a womans lower pelvic region. Any gal who takes a hit to her uterus (or within a few inches of it) is toast, history, el gonzo! And don't forget the ovaries, which will feel more pain than the hardest of kicks or punches to a man's jewels if a bullet hits anywhere within a few inches of them. Like a mechanic says, its all related.

A lot of men probably don't even think of being attacked by a woman, much less train for it. Rightfully so, if you go by the statistics.

But for women, the threat of female attackers (in addition to male attackers) is a very real and serious issue!

Bullet trajectory was mentioned in this thread. Most upper body shots go completely through females. Such was the case in the tragic and senseless Tuscon rampage, where four of the madman's shots went completely through a woman with enough energy to hit and kill a young girl standing behind her.

Another factor to consider is that women generally have a much, much higher tolerance for pain than men. That can keep them in the attack mode for a considerably longer period of time if they take identical chest shots with those fired into a man.

All of that has led to a growing number of female firearms instructors teaching what has come to be known as FFIT for Fast Female Incapacitation Technique. That's where you deliberately fire into a female attacker's lower pelvic region as your primary target to get both faster incapacitation and less danger to bystanders than what you'd get by shooting her with conventional chest shots. Many in womens self defense circles say its the most effective place to shoot a woman if you're attacked by one.

I don't doubt it. And if I'm ever attacked by another woman, she's gonna have a very bad day, lol.

sultan62 said:

One defensive drill I practice is, at short range, drawing (from OC hip holster) and firing immediately from the hip, then bringing up the gun for a double tap while backing away from the target/threat.

Here's my question: when shooting from the hip, where on the body should one aim? My normal target would be upper torso, which would place the bullet trajectory on an upward angle. This could be ideal if in a crowd, as it would get the bullet above the crowd quickly. However, we all know that it must come down, and this is obviously an unlikely scenario.

So where should I practice placing the round from the hip?

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Center Axis Relock

In close quarters, using your own body as a reference point removes much of the "thought" required with holding the weapon on target. While not exactly "old west duel" style, it does significantly reduce the required space and time required.

Just remember, keep that weak-side elbow back. Hah.

Shooting across the body like that seems like a good way to shoot yourself.