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Thread: OC vs crime need help with an argument

  1. #1
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    Angry OC vs crime need help with an argument

    I need help, i don't know what pisses me off more, how ignorant this guy is, or how unprepared i was for this argument.

    This is in the facebook thread for McDonnell privatizing liqueur sales in VA.
    this idiot is saying robbers are more likely to rob you if your open carrying!!!
    --------------------------

    ME:@ chuck, open carry, it tends to discourage people from robbing you and others near you.

    DUDE: Dave, open carry is not as much of a deterrent as some think. A crook would much rather rob you of your gun as it generally can be sold for more than the amount of cash most people carry on their person.


    ME: a hobo armed with his rusty knife would target an unarmed person long before he would attempt to rob and armed citizen.

    DUDE: Dave, thats a nice fantasy, but armed people frequently get robbed of their $$$ and their firearms. It all come down to who has the gun drawn first, and most of the time its the crook.

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    You can't argue with idiots, so why try.

    There are some people, gun owners and carriers as well as anti's, that base their opinions on what another idiot claims as fact. Accept the fact and disregard them. It's an argument that can't be won and it's not worth the effort of trying.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Ask him to provide a SINGLE incident of an OCer who is NOT an LEO who was targeted for robbery because they were OCing... We'll wait...

    There has been ONE incident where this happened that we know of, and it happened in the mid-west about two months ago.

    Now ask him how many people CCing have their firearms stolen. You'll find the numbers are a LOT higher than OCers, but are still pretty small.

    The fact is that criminals generally don't target people carrying guns to steal their guns, because criminals figure that anyone carrying is probably going to USE their gun to protect themselves and their property.

    In NC, most firearms reported as stolen, are stolen from unattended vehicles (over 70%). Our laws that force us to leave our legally-owned and lawfully carried firearms in our cars when we go into certain venues actually CONTRIBUTE to crime, because they give the BGs easy pickings. In VA, you have it a LOT easier, because you don't have NEARLY as many "prohibited places" as we do further south.

    This guy doesn't know anything about firearms theft statistics, and is just pulling stuff out of his a$$. The research, statistics, and real-world cases show he is fundamentally, 100% wrong.

    Ask him to back up his statements with legitimate citations of REAL cases, not just emotion, urban legends, and here say. The fact is, he can't. Either he will shut up and go away in a huff, or you ight prove to him--through his own research--that his stance is fundamentally incorrect, and that in fact, the truth is EXACTLY OPPOSITE to what he currently believes...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 09-09-2010 at 02:24 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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  4. #4
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    If OC'ers are frequently robbed of their sidearms, he should have no difficulty citing numerous instances of it happening. Ask him to support his statement with fact.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Arguing with idiots is.... idiotic!

    I tried to reason with my mother-in-law who thinks all guns are bad. I said if all guns are bad we better take them away from the police. Unfortunately she whole-heartedly agreed with that last statement! She thinks England (where more violence exists because of gun bans) is the perfect example. :-(

    If so many Open Carriers are robbed because of their guns, then Police must be robbed just as much since they openly carry. After all what is the difference between a cop OC-ing and a Civilian? Criminals know that Cops can "legally" only go so far whereas they don't know what billy-bob-OCer may do. :-)

    I fully believe a high percentage of criminals are cowards. Look at any convenience store robbery when a gun is produced by the clerk, the criminal bolts out the door. Unfortunately that same deterrant causes anti's hissie fits. My mother-in-law told me that if she saw someone OC-ing in a restaurant she would go to the manager and tell them if they wanted her business to get the OC-er out! So her irrational fear of guns makes it impossible for her to reason.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    I tried to reason with my mother-in-law who thinks all guns are bad. I said if all guns are bad we better take them away from the police. Unfortunately she whole-heartedly agreed with that last statement! She thinks England (where more violence exists because of gun bans) is the perfect example. :-(


    If so many Open Carriers are robbed because of their guns, then Police must be robbed just as much since they openly carry. After all what is the difference between a cop OC-ing and a Civilian? Criminals know that Cops can "legally" only go so far whereas they don't know what billy-bob-OCer may do. :-)

    I fully believe a high percentage of criminals are cowards. Look at any convenience store robbery when a gun is produced by the clerk, the criminal bolts out the door. Unfortunately that same deterrant causes anti's hissie fits. My mother-in-law told me that if she saw someone OC-ing in a restaurant she would go to the manager and tell them if they wanted her business to get the OC-er out! So her irrational fear of guns makes it impossible for her to reason.
    Poor manager! He'd lose a sale no matter which way he went. If the OC-er could pull it off, s/he should wait 'till your mother-in-law left, then leave too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 804emt View Post
    I need help, i don't know what pisses me off more, how ignorant this guy is, or how unprepared i was for this argument.

    This is in the facebook thread for McDonnell privatizing liqueur sales in VA.
    this idiot is saying robbers are more likely to rob you if your open carrying!!!
    --------------------------

    ME:@ chuck, open carry, it tends to discourage people from robbing you and others near you.

    DUDE: Dave, open carry is not as much of a deterrent as some think. A crook would much rather rob you of your gun as it generally can be sold for more than the amount of cash most people carry on their person.


    ME: a hobo armed with his rusty knife would target an unarmed person long before he would attempt to rob and armed citizen.

    DUDE: Dave, thats a nice fantasy, but armed people frequently get robbed of their $$$ and their firearms. It all come down to who has the gun drawn first, and most of the time its the crook.
    Ask him to back it up with facts. Prove that armed citizens "frequently" get robbed of the guns and cash on their person.

    I was in a class where a student said that Glenn Beck wants to take rights away from minorities. Prof said "Want to explain that?" and the student fell silent after a "uh....., no thanks"

  8. #8
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Poor manager! He'd lose a sale no matter which way he went. If the OC-er could pull it off, s/he should wait 'till your mother-in-law left, then leave too.
    More than 2. After I left I would post on all 2A sites I knew!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 804emt View Post
    I need help, i don't know what pisses me off more, how ignorant this guy is, or how unprepared i was for this argument.

    This is in the facebook thread for McDonnell privatizing liqueur sales in VA.
    this idiot is saying robbers are more likely to rob you if your open carrying!!!
    --------------------------

    ME:@ chuck, open carry, it tends to discourage people from robbing you and others near you.

    DUDE: Dave, open carry is not as much of a deterrent as some think. A crook would much rather rob you of your gun as it generally can be sold for more than the amount of cash most people carry on their person.


    ME: a hobo armed with his rusty knife would target an unarmed person long before he would attempt to rob and armed citizen.

    DUDE: Dave, thats a nice fantasy, but armed people frequently get robbed of their $$$ and their firearms. It all come down to who has the gun drawn first, and most of the time its the crook.
    Ask him why, then, when a bank robber, with mask over face, walked into a bank and saw a VCDL Board Member open carrying he ran instead of just robbing the bank and the Board Member? Couldn't possibly be because bad guys target those whom they feel CAN'T defend themselves? Or, the more simple response would be, why is violent crime lower where folks are armed than where they aren't?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    I tried to reason with my mother-in-law who thinks all guns are bad. I said if all guns are bad we better take them away from the police. Unfortunately she whole-heartedly agreed with that last statement! She thinks England (where more violence exists because of gun bans) is the perfect example. :-(



    Yes, England is such a delightful example of the success of gun control that the Bobbies (who have NEVER historically carried firearms) started carrying Glocks and full-auto MP-5s several years ago, due to the massive rise in drug gang violence since the long gun ban went into full effect...

    Yeah, England is a paragon of peace and order...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  11. #11
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Ask him to provide a SINGLE incident of an OCer who is NOT an LEO who was targeted for robbery because they were OCing... We'll wait...

    There has been ONE incident where this happened that we know of, and it happened in the mid-west about two months ago.

    Now ask him how many people CCing have their firearms stolen. You'll find the numbers are a LOT higher than OCers, but are still pretty small.

    The fact is that criminals generally don't target people carrying guns to steal their guns, because criminals figure that anyone carrying is probably going to USE their gun to protect themselves and their property.

    In NC, most firearms reported as stolen, are stolen from unattended vehicles (over 70%). Our laws that force us to leave our legally-owned and lawfully carried firearms in our cars when we go into certain venues actually CONTRIBUTE to crime, because they give the BGs easy pickings. In VA, you have it a LOT easier, because you don't have NEARLY as many "prohibited places" as we do further south.

    This guy doesn't know anything about firearms theft statistics, and is just pulling stuff out of his a$$. The research, statistics, and real-world cases show he is fundamentally, 100% wrong.

    Ask him to back up his statements with legitimate citations of REAL cases, not just emotion, urban legends, and here say. The fact is, he can't. Either he will shut up and go away in a huff, or you ight prove to him--through his own research--that his stance is fundamentally incorrect, and that in fact, the truth is EXACTLY OPPOSITE to what he currently believes...
    Good answer, Dreamer. Way to go. Incidentally, it is rather interesting that our sister Southern states further south of us here in Virginia have some unusual restrictions regarding the carrying of arms while here we are pretty much open everyplace we carry.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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