Open Carry Back Pocket

If I am carrying my pistol in my back pocket, is this considered open carry? How much of the pistol really needs to be visible. For me, the entire grip and sights will be outside of my pocket.

Varies from state to state. You can ask in your appropriate state forums here and here

thanks.. I just dont like a big holster on me and my pocket is much more comfortable.

Without any sort of active retention, I'd be a little concerned about someone being able to grab it from behind me. Of course that's up for you to decide.

stephenl9 said:

If I am carrying my pistol in my back pocket, is this considered open carry? How much of the pistol really needs to be visible. For me, the entire grip and sights will be outside of my pocket.

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I kinda like a holster that guards the trigger and helps hold onto the gun.

Carrying in your back pocket may be construed in the worst possible way. If OC is illegal in your circumstance, the pistol "printing" on your back pocket could be construed as OC. If CC is illegal in your circumstance, the fact that the pistol is not visible could be construed as CC.

I recommend carry that is clearly CC or clearly OC and, in either case, lawful.

That'll be 2 cents.

t33j said:

Without any sort of active retention, I'd be a little concerned about someone being able to grab it from behind me. Of course that's up for you to decide.

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+1.

OK, I'll say it in plain english: THAT IS THE MOST IRRESPONSIBLE MANNER OF CARRY! You endanger not only yourself with Accidental Discharge but everyone else around you every time you put the WEAPON in such an unsecure place!

Man, oh, man, STOP CARRYING until you take some classes or grow a brain.

"[You] don't like a big holster on your hip." Then find something you are comfortable with. And Grow Up. Geesh, there are way too many options for carry for you to make such a statement and be believable.

You are either a TROLL or incredibly ignorant of the responsibility for carrying a lethal weapon such as a hand gun.

Either way, there is no excuse for the manner of carry you claim to use.

...Another poster child for gun control in the making. If you can't carry a weapon responsibly... don't carry. I'm serious.

stephenl9 said:

If I am carrying my pistol in my back pocket, is this considered open carry? How much of the pistol really needs to be visible. For me, the entire grip and sights will be outside of my pocket.

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When your gun drops out of your pocket and discharges, please be sure to post the story here...
HERE'S YOUR SIGN...

When you shoot yourself in the a$$ with a negligent discharge, please be sure to post the story here...
HERE'S YOUR SIGN...

When some lower-case "G" sneaks up behind you in the WalMart parking lot, whacks you in the head with a "40" of Schlitz, and steals your gun, please be sure to post the story here...
HERE'S YOUR SIGN...

When your gun flops out of your pants as you are running down the street to catch a cab, please be sure to post the story here...
HERE'S YOUR SIGN...


If you can't learn to comfortably wear a proper holster with some sort of retention (thum strap, friction, Serpa, etc) then you need to just sell your gun and join the rest of the unarmed, defenseless, irresponsible sheeple...

Otherwise, the mode of carry you suggest (back pants pocket) makes you a SERIOUS danger to yourself and others, and a potential candidate for the next round of Darwin Awards...

While I don't think OC-ing in your back pocket works, CC does. (Assuming it is legal where you are and is legal for you personally)

I have a "pocket" holster for my smaller guns and have CC-ed my NAA 32acp in front and back pockets. If a bad guy asks for my wallet he may be getting a NAA-surprise. Since 32acp is a fairly small caliber I only use it when I can't bring anything bigger.

Usually I OC on the hip and CC in one of my pockets WITH a pocket holster that does cover the trigger guard. While CC-ing I have never had a problem with the gun coming out of my pocket.

So in short don't OC in a back pocket, but consider CC-ing if the gun fits and it is legal.

t33j said:

Varies from state to state. You can ask in your appropriate state forums here and here

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?????

How does any kind of pocket carry constitute anything other than concealed carry...can you elaborate please? Please post up the actual Statute information instead of sending someone to another forum. Lots of folks on this board may have a need to answer this question. True, it's State specific, but concealed is concealed even if in a pocket and the only folks this becomes an issue with is the justice system community. I personally wouldn't have any problem with it....well, unless it's me that's carrying it due to the proximity to certain body parts.

So my response to the OP is that unless you find a specific statute for your State saying otherwise, pocket carry is not open carry. If you do find one that says pocket carry qualifies as OC, make sure you post it up, others may want that same information.

Now applying it to this specific detail of grip and sights out of the pocket... Can you guarantee that no amount of clothing will EVER cover the firearm or that it will NEVER drop into your pocket without handling it? If your answer is no, then it's likely not worth the risk. It's a gray area that none of us like (OC or CCW). Nothing actually addresses what some of us call 50-50 carry, which is where nearly 50% of the firearm is exposed and the rest is hidden. Most LEOs, prosecutors, and courts will see any attempt to conceal any part of a firearm as an attempt to conceal the entire firearm. It stinks, but that's the nature of our joke of a justice system.

Personally, 50-50 carry is an intent to protect the muzzle of the firearm, maintain control of the firearm by keeping it in contact with the body, and a clear attempt to display a portion of the firearm so it is identifiable as a firearm. That last portion sounds an awful lot like OC doesn't it?

Please allow me to give a quality example here: I use a Crossbreed Supertuck holster with my Glock 19. I can tuck behind the holster, over the clips and tucked in, or pulled over and concealed (untucked). If I wear my shirt tucked behind my Supertuck, 50% of the G19 is clearly visible as well as part of the holster, this is especially true if I wear something that allows for color contrast against my holster and firearm. Clearly I am not intending to conceal the entire firearm with this particular holster as it would require the shirt be over the holster to conceal the top-end. Could a strong argument be made here that it's impossible to attempt to conceal the entire firearm if I've clearly tucked in my shirt behind the Supertuck? I'd say so, but the justice system might not agree.

Reread his question. You seem to have ignored all but the first sentence.

If his gun is held in his back pocket, and the sights and grip are visible, it is not hidden from common observation. It would be considered open carry in Virginia for the same reason a gun with its butt and rear sights exposed and holstered in an IWB is. (See Virginia Tuck) Other states are different. This is not a State forum where State specific information belongs. That's why there are 50 subforums on the main page.

t33j said:

Reread his question. You seem to have ignored all but the first sentence.

If his gun is held in his back pocket, and the sights and grip are visible, it is not hidden from common observation. It would be considered open carry in Virginia for the same reason a gun with its butt and rear sights exposed and holstered in an IWB is. (See Virginia Tuck) Other states are different. This is not a State forum where State specific information belongs. That's why there are 50 subforums on the main page.

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Not hidden from common observation? Hidden from common observation in LEO terminology means that it must be visible from 3 sides and readily identifiable as a firearm. Engagements happen face to face, not face to back; simply placing a firearm beyond the 180 degrees of the forward view of the body may constitute concealment for that reason alone. At least that's what I was taught as a MP and when I had to learn Georgia's CCW laws. If it's in a back pocket it is only visible from 1 side, not necessarily identifiable as a firearm (cannot discern it from a BB gun or toy can you), and thus the intent to conceal may exist in the eyes of the law. Likely, most State's do not have coverage for this type of carry in their statutes....it means it's likely to be clear as mud on this issue.

That said, one needs to look at other factors of carrying in such a manner in the back pocket. It's VERY dangerous and VERY foolish, I've tried it myself and went to a front pocket carry with a Ruger LCP. Here's 10 interesting things to consider:

1. Your eyes are in the front of your head, you cannot see a threat behind you that may attempt to take your partially visible firearm.
2. Your arms tend to reach forward rather than backward, this makes #3 a reality.
3. Firearm retention from a threat is an impossibility....say it again...retention is an impossibility!
4. Firearm retention from an accidental drop is difficult unless you go fully concealed in the pocket, so the material of the pocket acts as a retention device.
5. The type, size, caliber, and capacity of any firearm carried in the pocked becomes extremely limited. Sometimes smaller is better.
6. Pocket holsters are designed with the intent to conceal, use one and have to go to court and the description of that equipment may reinforce "intent to conceal" even if that was not the intent.
7. Sitting on a toilet can become hazardous...not just because of a potential firearm drop, but because you could dislodge your firearm and lose it....this has actually happened in a Wally World. Person's firearm fell out of his pocket and was left lying on the bathroom floor, fortunately an employee found it and turned it in.
8. It's going to print and print bad, not to mention it eventually wears a hole in your pocket like a can of chew will.
9. Ever try to sit down with a firearm in your pocket? It's not very comfortable...think George Costanza and the wallet issue.
10. Ever try to draw your firearm from a back pocket while seated? It's simply not going to happen very fast if at all.

And by the way folks, front pocket carry has some of these same issues...especially those regarding a seated position. My wife had to find this out the hard way after I had tried to educate her on the issues I had experienced. I eventually wound up having to buy her a Crossbreed Supertuck for her Ruger LCP.

stephenl9 said:

If I am carrying my pistol in my back pocket, is this considered open carry? How much of the pistol really needs to be visible. For me, the entire grip and sights will be outside of my pocket.

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Not smart at all. You're right? Sure. Still, quite stupid, if you ask me, and here's why:

Most LEOs who work in locals which allow for lawful OC expect to see the firearms in holsters.

A back pocket is NOT a holster.

Tell you what - exercise your second amendment rights, go for it, carry in your back hip pocket six ways to sunday, and let us know how that works for you!

:banghead:

There's a time to push the envelope, and there's a time to comply with the spoils we've been given. Now is the time for the latter. If you really want to push the envelope, fine. Just stay attuned to these and various other message forums, and I think you'll find that OC in the USA will soon find a voice. Might be two months, might be two years. I dunno - I just made up "OC in the USA" about 42 seconds ago! It's catchy, though, isn't it?

Be patient. If it ever does take off, ride the wave. Surfing ahead of breakers will simply get you trounced.

Slight change of subject for a second.

I had a young CJ student ask me some interesting questions on a subject similar to this while we were debating the CCW age requirement in Mo. I found his text-book approach to be very basic and very correct. Interesting how we have let government stray from the foundations and protections of: For the people, of the people, by the people.

Q: So if I have no intent to hide the firearm, then mens rea (the criminal mind) does not exist correct?

A: Technically that would be correct.

Q: So if mens rea is required to aid in the establishment of intent and a defesne attorney will use the lack of intent to show no mens rea, then wouldn't charging someone with a crime that requires intent/mens rea be not only impossible, but actually be an illegal prosecution?

A: Technically that would be correct. However, each State writes their concealed carry statutes different and those statutes may not actually require intent or mens rea.

Q: Is not intent and mens rea the basis for criminal law? Do they not have to exist for a criminal act to have been committed?

A: Due to how statutes are written, mens rea and intent are no longer needed. See the statutes for involuntary manslaughter for just such an example. Our justice system has strayed from the foundation of requiring the basic criminal elements in their own attempts to criminalize and control the masses. It's yet another attempt at insulating the elite from the rest of the populus.

Q: So I have this straight, without a CCW permit if I carry openly and my shirt or other garment just happens to fall over and conceal the firearm I can actually be guilty of Unlawful Use of a Weapon in Missouri? Even if my intent was to open carry?

A: Yes, that is a real possibility. Officer discretion may dictate how that is addressed and if it goes any farther than "HBO" (handled by officer).

gutshot said:

Pocket carry has been around for a long time.

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And ND's resulting in injury to the pocket carrier have been around just as long, and are the MOST frequent type of self-inflicted gunshot injuries.

Get a freaking holster, people....