Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: State Fair?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    , New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    20

    State Fair?

    Anyone know if firearms are allowed at the State Fair?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    143
    It has been posted at the entry as no guns allowed.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    NM
    Posts
    41

    Violates article 6 NM constitution?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoball View Post
    It has been posted at the entry as no guns allowed.
    Ok but does that not violate article 2 section 6 of the NM constitution? Is NM Expo state land? If so, this is an illegal posting and an illegal ban since local authorities are preempted by state law.
    Last edited by NMOCr; 09-08-2012 at 01:14 PM. Reason: corrected the section of the NM constitution.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    Ok but does that not violate article 2 section 6 of the NM constitution? Is NM Expo state land? If so, this is an illegal posting and an illegal ban since local authorities are preempted by state law.
    A couple things:

    First- inside the fair grounds, alcohol is served. That alone made it completely off-limits before the laws changed allowing CC with a license in certain types of establishments.

    That being said, I do not think it is state land per se, and I am fairly certain that private operations lease the land for uses such as the state fair.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    NM
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    A couple things:

    First- inside the fair grounds, alcohol is served. That alone made it completely off-limits before the laws changed allowing CC with a license in certain types of establishments.

    That being said, I do not think it is state land per se, and I am fairly certain that private operations lease the land for uses such as the state fair.
    That doesnt apply to the whole fair grounds. Adults have to drink in specific "corrals" and children are not allowed within those "corrals". As for leases for "private operations", it is still state land, and the "private entity" is still doing public actions on public lands. This really needs to be taken to federal court.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    That doesnt apply to the whole fair grounds. Adults have to drink in specific "corrals" and children are not allowed within those "corrals". As for leases for "private operations", it is still state land, and the "private entity" is still doing public actions on public lands. This really needs to be taken to federal court.
    Please provide a cite as to how you have determined that the land of the fairgrounds is actually public state land.

    On edit- I just spoke with the state land commissioner's office and the records department. According to them it is "fee land" or private land and not state-owned.

    You might try doing a tiny little bit of homework to back up your statements. Again- if you can provide information indicating otherwise, I'm all ears.
    Last edited by AH.74; 09-10-2012 at 11:50 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    NM
    Posts
    41
    I know that this is old thread, but if you are claiming "Fee land", then are they simple and merely leasing state land?

    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Please provide a cite as to how you have determined that the land of the fairgrounds is actually public state land.

    On edit- I just spoke with the state land commissioner's office and the records department. According to them it is "fee land" or private land and not state-owned.

    You might try doing a tiny little bit of homework to back up your statements. Again- if you can provide information indicating otherwise, I'm all ears.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    I know that this is old thread, but if you are claiming "Fee land", then are they simple and merely leasing state land?
    Read my comments again.

    First of all, to review, I am not claiming anything. I am only passing on what I was told back then by a state employee. I am taking them at their word that they know what they're talking about.

    Secondly, it is not state land. To repeat- the fair grounds are NOT STATE LANDS. They are private property, which is leased out to the company which puts on the fair. The use of the term "fee land" is their reference to private property.

    As such, the operators of the private property- in this case the company that has leased it for the term- has the right to post it as prohibited.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    NM
    Posts
    41
    I dont care if its "leased" to Santa Clause. Its still state land! They are merely trying to concoct some sort of reason to claim that its private property to use the excuse that they can ban firearms and "do whatever they please". I think that that clearly violates the NM constitution.
    I am in the process of contacting Michael Henningsen who runs the Expo, after being forwarded to them by Governor Martinez office who in on email told me that they appoint the managers to clarify who actually owns the property. I wont expose what I am talking about until I get the emails sorted out.
    Last edited by NMOCr; 10-01-2013 at 05:26 PM.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    I dont care if its "leased" to Santa Clause. Its still state land! They are merely trying to concoct some sort of reason to claim that its private property to use the excuse that they can ban firearms and "do whatever they please". I think that that clearly violates the NM constitution.
    Or Santa Claus.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    I dont care if its "leased" to Santa Clause. Its still state land! They are merely trying to concoct some sort of reason to claim that its private property to use the excuse that they can ban firearms and "do whatever they please". I think that that clearly violates the NM constitution.
    I am in the process of contacting Michael Henningsen who runs the Expo, after being forwarded to them by Governor Martinez office who in on email told me that they appoint the managers to clarify who actually owns the property. I wont expose what I am talking about until I get the emails sorted out.
    No, it is not state land. I think your claims are completely off-base according to what you want to believe, based on emtion.

    You go on believing what you want. I don't believe in conspiracy theories. The person who "runs the expo"? Whoever "runs the expo" may in fact lease the private property from the private land owner.

    I told you I spoke to the state land office. There are no "managers" needed to clarify anything.

    I'll be here waiting for you to back up your claims.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    NM
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    No, it is not state land. I think your claims are completely off-base according to what you want to believe, based on emtion.

    You go on believing what you want. I don't believe in conspiracy theories. The person who "runs the expo"? Whoever "runs the expo" may in fact lease the private property from the private land owner.

    I told you I spoke to the state land office. There are no "managers" needed to clarify anything.

    I'll be here waiting for you to back up your claims.
    Well I got emails from both Gov Martinez and EXPO NM manager, who both say that it is in fact state property. However, they just wont change their policies without a lawsuit. I would love to find an attorney that would take this case.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    Well I got emails from both Gov Martinez and EXPO NM manager, who both say that it is in fact state property. However, they just wont change their policies without a lawsuit. I would love to find an attorney that would take this case.
    Prove it. Back up your claim and show us the emails, in entirety and unedited. Until then, I will take the word of the state land office people and what they told me. I have no reason to believe they would have given me inaccurate information.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    912
    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Prove it. Back up your claim and show us the emails, in entirety and unedited. Until then, I will take the word of the state land office people and what they told me. I have no reason to believe they would have given me inaccurate information.

    Don't take their word. They usually don't know what they are spouting.
    Go to the Tax Assessors office and look up the ownership. Then cross check it at the County Clerk's Office in the Deed Records.

    I locate land and ownership for a living.

    NM PS 13468, among others.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    I locate land and ownership for a living.
    I have done many title searches myself.

    However, this isn't terribly important to me. If NMOCr would show us the emails it would give him some credibility with me. From what I have seen in his other posts, that credibility has not been established. And he has has not responded for several days, which casts doubt in my mind on his claims.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    143
    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    Well I got emails from both Gov Martinez and EXPO NM manager, who both say that it is in fact state property. However, they just wont change their policies without a lawsuit. I would love to find an attorney that would take this case.


    The land is not “State Land”. State “Trust” Land is a separate category from private lands. It is actually private property and private land just like where you own your home. There is no State Land involved with EXPO NM.
    The land known as Expo NM (NM State Fairgrounds) is private land owned, not leased by the NM STATE FAIR COMMISSION, as indicated by the Bernalillo County Property records. (Go to: http://www.bernco.gov/property-tax-search). It is zoned A-1 with a Special Use Permit to house the State Fair (EXPO New Mexico). Total full value for the 225 acres is listed as $17,576,600. Since the private land is used for State purposes, the net taxable value on record is $0.
    Here is the description of EXPO NM:

    “EXPO New Mexico is an Enterprise Agency of the State of New Mexico and must generate all funds necessary for maintenance, operation of the facilities, and the employment of staff, and production of the annual State Fair. The State Fair Commission is a seven-member volunteer board appointed by the Governor and organized to assist State Fair Management with ensuring the success of the annual event. It operates the exposition and maintains the event grounds that are spread over an area of more than 225 acres.”
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	zonemap.jpg 
Views:	194 
Size:	99.7 KB 
ID:	10971  
    Last edited by snoball; 11-14-2013 at 09:23 AM. Reason: addl info

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Albuquerque
    Posts
    2

    State Fair Property Ownership

    Quote Originally Posted by snoball View Post
    The land known as Expo NM (NM State Fairgrounds) is private land owned, not leased by the NM STATE FAIR COMMISSION, as indicated by the Bernalillo County Property records. (Go to: http://www.bernco.gov/property-tax-search). It is zoned A-1 with a Special Use Permit to house the State Fair (EXPO New Mexico). Total full value for the 225 acres is listed as $17,576,600. Since the private land is used for State purposes, the net taxable value on record is $0.”
    It appears to me the basis for the conclusion the land is "private" is predicated upon the assumption that the NM State Fair Commission is a private entity. I disagree.

    This is a subject of which I am most curious as well, and did some research. The Bernalillo County assessor's records indicate that the State Fair Grounds property is owned by the "NM State Fair Commission." The parcel id number is 10180573963741021 for anyone to look this up. Now, the “NM State Fair Commission” is a legislatively-created corporate body that is administratively attached to the NM tourism department, which is a part of the Executive Branch of the State Government. (See NMSA §16-6-11 & §16-6-5). So from the property ownership record, it appears the property is owned by a corporate body of the State Government – not "private" property owned by a non-state corporation. You won't find the "NM State Fair Commission" listed at the Secretary of State's corporation commission on-line look up. I agree the property is not “State Trust Property,” which is a different category altogether. You will also find that the "State Fair" is by statute a "governmental instrumentality." (See NMSA §16-6-14),

    Of further interest is that the "net taxable value" of the property is zero, because of the "statutory exemption," which is not described on the Bernalillo County Treasurer's website. Now, the first “statutory exemption” I found is Article VIII, Section 3 of the NM Constitution which exempts public property from taxation - which further seems to indicate that the property must be public. The second is NMSA §3-64-3, which permits a local government by vote to exempt “commercial personal property of a new business facility” from property tax for up to 20 years. As far as I know, the State Fair has been at its current location longer than 20 years.

    I want to find out which “statutory exemption” is applied to the property. If it is Art. VIII, Sec. 3 of the NM Constitution, then to me that would be conclusive evidence showing the property to be public – not private. If the property is determined to be public, then IMHO the “no weapons” sign ostensibly banning firearms at the Flea Market entrance would be posted in violation of NMSA §30-14-6.

    BernCo Tax.pdfState Fair Ownership.pdf

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Welcome, Charlie, and thanks for the excellent first post. I now question what I was told (so long ago at this point) by the state land office- your information seems much more accurate, and if true I agree with your last statement about the signs being in violation. If you find anything further, please keep us posted.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Albuquerque
    Posts
    2

    New Mexico State Fair UPDATE

    Ok - Here's an update on the question of whether the New Mexico State Fair property is - or is not - state property. For reference see the attachments to my prior post.

    In an e-mail response to an inquiry made by the Chairman of The Constitution Party of New Mexico asking which “statutory exemption” is applied to the New Mexico State Fair property, the Bernalillo County Assessor's Office wrote:

    Mr. Barrie,

    Thank you for your inquiry. The property located at 300 San Pedro NE (UPC #101805739637410121) is currently receiving a state exemption further identified as section 7-36-7 NMSA 1978 NM Constitution Article VIII Sec. 3.

    Please contact me if I can be of further assistance.

    Thank you,

    Karen Montano
    Bernalillo County Assessor’s Office
    505-222-3721


    Now, NMSA §7-36-7 exempts from taxation in New Mexico "property exempt from taxation under the federal or state constitution, federal law, the Property Tax Code or other laws...." The section as a whole speaks to property exempt under law, or as either oil & gas property or productive mineral property.

    Art. VIII, Sec. 3 of the New Mexico State Constitution says: “The property of the United States, the state and all counties, towns, cities and school districts and other municipal corporations, public libraries, community ditches and all laterals thereof, all church property not used for commercial purposes, all property used for educational or charitable purposes, all cemeteries not used or held for private or corporate profit and all bonds of the state of New Mexico, and of the counties, municipalities and districts thereof shall be exempt from taxation.”

    So, in reading what the Bernalillo County Assessor has to say, I am now of the firm opinion that the New Mexico State Fair property unequivocally IS state property. The next step is to press this in Court.... Who is up for being the Poster Child to challenge the “no weapons” sign ostensibly banning firearms at the Flea Market entrance as being posted in violation of NMSA §30-14-6? I am of the opinion that it will take having a Judge make a legal decision on the matter. Otherwise, the "State Fair Guards" will continue to prevent law-abiding citizens from exercising their rights.

    Charlie

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Albuquerque
    Posts
    2

    Expo New Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieL View Post
    Ok - Here's an update on the question of whether the New Mexico State Fair property is - or is not - state property. For reference see the attachments to my prior post.

    In an e-mail response to an inquiry made by the Chairman of The Constitution Party of New Mexico asking which “statutory exemption” is applied to the New Mexico State Fair property, the Bernalillo County Assessor's Office wrote:

    Mr. Barrie,

    Thank you for your inquiry. The property located at 300 San Pedro NE (UPC #101805739637410121) is currently receiving a state exemption further identified as section 7-36-7 NMSA 1978 NM Constitution Article VIII Sec. 3.

    Please contact me if I can be of further assistance.

    Thank you,

    Karen Montano
    Bernalillo County Assessor’s Office
    505-222-3721


    Now, NMSA §7-36-7 exempts from taxation in New Mexico "property exempt from taxation under the federal or state constitution, federal law, the Property Tax Code or other laws...." The section as a whole speaks to property exempt under law, or as either oil & gas property or productive mineral property.

    Art. VIII, Sec. 3 of the New Mexico State Constitution says: “The property of the United States, the state and all counties, towns, cities and school districts and other municipal corporations, public libraries, community ditches and all laterals thereof, all church property not used for commercial purposes, all property used for educational or charitable purposes, all cemeteries not used or held for private or corporate profit and all bonds of the state of New Mexico, and of the counties, municipalities and districts thereof shall be exempt from taxation.”

    So, in reading what the Bernalillo County Assessor has to say, I am now of the firm opinion that the New Mexico State Fair property unequivocally IS state property. The next step is to press this in Court.... Who is up for being the Poster Child to challenge the “no weapons” sign ostensibly banning firearms at the Flea Market entrance as being posted in violation of NMSA §30-14-6? I am of the opinion that it will take having a Judge make a legal decision on the matter. Otherwise, the "State Fair Guards" will continue to prevent law-abiding citizens from exercising their rights.

    Charlie
    In the last several months the Constitution Party of New Mexico was required to collect several thousand registered voter petition signatures. We paid for a space at the sate fairgrounds flea market run by Expo New Mexico. On the second weekend of attendance, one of the managers said I could not carry my gun on the fairgrounds. I informed him he was mistaken and gave him a lot of documentation showing that is was in fact state property and I was legal to open and conceal carry. The next thing I know he returns with two state police officers and they proceed to give me a very difficult time. Officer Smith was "in my face" extensively. I explained the laws to them but the harassment continued. My most important commitment at that time was to secure the required signatures to maintain ballot access for the Constitution Party of New Mexico so I really did not want to make an second amendment stand at that time. Officer Smith said " I am going to have to pat you down and look under your coat" I informed him that he was not going to do that and what part of the 4th amendment to the Constitution did he not understand. By this time I have had enough so I went to my car and tossed my gun inside and closed the door, at which time Officer Smith grabbed my arm and pushed me against my car . I jerked back and told him not to touch me again. The other officer came up and asked if I had a concealed carry permit which I answered in the affirmative. He politely asked for it and I complied. He took the information down and they left. To make a long story short, the rest of the time we were at the flea market we received nothing but harassment from the Expo people regarding where we standing what we were doing etc. We even had a lady from Expo tell the state police that we could not collect signatures on the street or sidewalk at the gun show. This 6 foot plus officer and his partner said " I don't car what the law is you will leave until she is gone" We moved down the block and continued our signature gathering. One week later I sat with one of the managers and gave him all of the gun carry laws an told him that we where legal to carry on the fairgrounds. He looked at me and said" If you carry your gun I will have you arrested". I did not make any further issue of this as our signature gathering was a priority and not fight a second amendment battle. We have since turned in our signatures and the party is on the ballot in New Mexico. The crux of this is that some of our state police do not know the laws and try to exercise improper authority. The Expo New Mexico seems to be run by liberal persons who have chosen to disregard the New Mexico Constitution and state laws. The Constitution Party of New Mexico does not waiver in their support of our second amendment. We look forward to visiting the flea market while exercising our right some day.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quite a number of us are watching what develops, Jon B.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,165
    The Constitution Party will gain much stature if it nails its Second Amendment plank to the doors of the statehouses and churches.

    Only The Constitution Party represents America's conservative Country Class against the progressive Ruling Party of demoticly repugnant liars. Progressivism is the political bowel movement (necessary, certain, universal) to make-things-better while leaving US to suffer the unintended consequences.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon B View Post
    We have since turned in our signatures and the party is on the ballot in New Mexico.
    Jon,

    This is the first I have heard of this. Thanks for the work you're doing.

    The party is on the ballot for what exactly?

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Albuquerque
    Posts
    2

    Constitution Party of New Mexico

    We are a minor (third) party that supports the Constitution 100% with no wavering. We will have candidates for office in New Mexico through 2016 and hopefully beyond. We have nominated Michael Lunnon for sheriff of McKinley county and he will be on that county ballot under the Constitution party in 2014. The party has been on the ballot since 1992. You may call 505-508-3607 for more information.

    Jon

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    44
    Any progress on this? Anyone try to OC there since? It is public land owned by a state agency, so how can they prevent you from carrying there? I'd CC to get in, and then take my extra shirt off in the restroom and OC. If they arrest me, then I'd sue. A friend standing by with video recording would be a good thing to have if you do this.

    Make it public on Youtube, offer interviews to the news media.

    Looks like it might take a lawsuit to force them to follow state law. If one person doesn't want to do it, then OC as a group.

    Georgia law was recently changed with HB 60 which makes it explicit that public property was taken off the table with regard to private entities that lease it, as to their ability to exclude or eject someone carrying a lawful weapon.

    Yet, we still have pockets of resistance that are falling one by one. North Georgia State Fair forbids weapons, and it is held at a county park. I predict they will come around soon to follow state law. I will visit there soon with my family, and I will be OC'ing as is my usual custom.

    I recently had email correspondence with Zoo Atlanta who has now decided to follow state law. They lease city owned land.

    These things can get done, it just takes a little work.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •