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Thread: ALERT: Royal Oak Seeks To Create New Pistol-Free Zone

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Exclamation ALERT: Royal Oak Seeks To Create New Pistol-Free Zone

    Please attend the next Royal Oak City Commission Meeting as we will need support on this issue.

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...20100913a.html

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...913-287-10.pdf

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    WHEREAS, Michigan law is unclear as to whether or not a member of the
    general public can be prohibited from possessing a firearm at Arts, Beats & Eats,
    or a similar festival where large crowds of people are in close proximity, alcohol
    is served, and various types of entertainment are offered for people of all ages;
    and
    UNCLEAR MY A**!

    Tell me when to show up and I will if I can.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Meeting Date, Time, and Location

    Date & Time: Mon, 09/13/2010 - 7:30pm - 8:30pm
    Location: Commission Room - 211 S Williams St, Royal Oak, on the 3rd floor, room 315

    http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Ro...eocode=ADDRESS

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    OH I smell a civil and constitutional rights law suit coming at Royal Oak like a runaway freight train...

    These morons are as arrogant as it gets and election time is the time to have a "political Purge". Fire every damn one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Please attend the next Royal Oak City Commission Meeting as we will need support on this issue.

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...20100913a.html

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...913-287-10.pdf
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry Me thinks RO officials like free media coverage?

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Please attend the next Royal Oak City Commission Meeting as we will need support on this issue.

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...20100913a.html

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...913-287-10.pdf
    Shall we make this a long gun event too? Just saying... seriously - these officials are ... well, suffering from rectal cranial inversion!

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    Royal oak pistol free zones

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Please attend the next Royal Oak City Commission Meeting as we will need support on this issue.

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...20100913a.html

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...913-287-10.pdf
    They still don't get it.Even if it was declared a pistol free zone , open carry would still be legal with a CPL.This is a long shot in the dark by people who are mad because they lost the argument. Granholm is not going to open this can of worms for the next governor.And Pappageorge is pro-gun. It's a total waste of their time and it would be a waste of ours to go.The precedent was set by Ferndale and they won't get it changed.Even if by some miracle they got special exemption just for this one city and festival....who cares. I don't wish to spend any of my money there anyway.It hasn't got a snowballs chance in hell. What could we argue anyway.We know state law and that's what they would have to change.The best thing we could do is petition the same people to leave the laws as they stand.Michigan has the smoothest gun laws around.They don't want every municipality to have the right to make their own laws.Write your own letters and forget it.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Shall we make this a long gun event too? Just saying... seriously - these officials are ... well, suffering from rectal cranial inversion!
    Nope, Long Gun OC would be, in my estimation, playing into their hands. We have been polite, professional, and have stood up firmly for our rights. They just continue to look "stupid" by taking these actions on.

    What I find somewhat amusing is Consent Agenda Item 8L:

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...913-279-10.pdf

    It appears that a Dentist wanted to put up a sign for the business and Royal Oak denied him 3 times of approvals. The Dentist filed suit and won since Royal Oak did not have sufficient evidence to deny him (does this sound familiar?). Now, it appears that they will have to let him have the sign AND will have to pay him for his troubles.

    Does this sound familiar where they did not have evidence, yet went ahead with their agenda anyways? The Resolution to Ban Firearms from Public Buildings for having an unsubstantiated "chilling effect" on First Amendment for Public Comments in City Commission Meetings? The New Resolution to create a PFZ for Festivals when the current laws do not support them and where firearm carry was widely reported as a Non-Issue?

    You just can't fix stupid, but you can kick them out of office.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I was being "snarky" about the long guns. Thanks for this post PD. If at all possible I'll be there. They will do nothing in my opinion until their collective asses are sued into submission, as this ($$$$$$$), is all that seems to matter to them.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 09-10-2010 at 10:44 PM. Reason: typo

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    Because so many people died at the Arts, Beats, and Eats Festival.

    -Richard-

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    I used to live over that way and trust this, these morons will not stop until they are sued into poverty and the voters have enough of watching their city destroyed by a few morons personal vendettas. Then the morons will be gone and the city will suffer with losses from lost lawsuits. Too bad the people in Royal Oak can't see this eventuality, before it hits them in the pocketbooks (taxation). People who hold public office should not use their office as a tool to get even with their perceived enemies, on the tax payers dime. That is what this is all about the public officials have an agenda and will stop at nothing and spare no taxpayer expense to see that agenda through. Witz in my opinion has an ego that precedes common sense, and his cronies in public office will follow him over the edge of the Abyss if need be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    I was being "snarky" about the long guns. Thanks for this post PD. If at all possible I'll be there. They will do nothing in my opinion until their collective asses are sued into submission, as this ($$$$$$$), is all that seems to matter to them.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    I used to live over that way and trust this, these morons will not stop until they are sued into poverty and the voters have enough of watching their city destroyed by a few morons personal vendettas. Then the morons will be gone and the city will suffer with losses from lost lawsuits. Too bad the people in Royal Oak can't see this eventuality, before it hits them in the pocketbooks (taxation). People who hold public office should not use their office as a tool to get even with their perceived enemies, on the tax payers dime. That is what this is all about the public officials have an agenda and will stop at nothing and spare no taxpayer expense to see that agenda through. Witz in my opinion has an ego that precedes common sense, and his cronies in public office will follow him over the edge of the Abyss if need be.
    That was my impression as well, and why I was so adamant to teach that SOB witz, and his ilk a lesson at Arts Beats, and Eats, they just won't stop, until they get there way, and make no mistake there ultimate goal is the same as all antis. Which is why I didn't get all the people saying, "we won, don't rub it in", because these people will not stop, what I was trying to encourage was enough carriers to show up that people wouldn't be able to turn around hardly without seeing one of us, because that ultimately is the only way to shut witz, l brooks patterson, and there ilk down, by getting out there, and letting people see that there doomsday predictions are not coming true, and that they are a bunch of morons. I'll be there, and I'm half tempted again to bring my PS-90 this time just to drive the point home, I probably won't but I'm tempted, these people are really ******* me off. I will for sure be there though with at least my pistol.
    Last edited by Small Arms Collector; 09-11-2010 at 12:54 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small Arms Collector View Post
    That was my impression as well, and why I was so adamant to teach that SOB witz, and his ilk a lesson at Arts Beats, and Eats, they just won't stop, until they get there way, and make no mistake there ultimate goal is the same as all antis. Which is why I didn't get all the people saying, "we won, don't rub it in", because these people will not stop, what I was trying to encourage was enough carriers to show up that people wouldn't be able to turn around hardly without seeing one of us, because that ultimately is the only way to shut witz, l brooks patterson, and there ilk down, by getting out there, and letting people see that there doomsday predictions are not coming true, and that they are a bunch of morons. I'll be there, and I'm half tempted again to bring my PS-90 this time just to drive the point home, I probably won't but I'm tempted, these people are really ******* me off. I will for sure be there though with at least my pistol.
    SAC - I have had a member of their commission belittle me & try to provoke me into a confrontation, do not let them sucker you in - that's what they want. Just speak your peace in a calm manner & let them make asses of themselves if they want. I don't get way they cannot get a grip on the idea that we are simply asking them to follow the law that's it nothing more & nothing less. With leaders like these in place throughout our country it is only a matter of time before history will repeat its self again. Sad, so very sad. Remember guys & gals or forefathers were called: rabble, misfits & even traitors by the powers in charge of their day. History has proved those insults hurled by a corrupt crown to be false. History will also prove those insults launched at us by corrupt & morally bankrupt government officials & others to be false also.

    Actions speak volumes, & their continued disregard for the laws of our Country & State [RO officials & Mr. Witz] paint a very clear picture of who the "bad guys" really are in this battle for civil rights.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 09-11-2010 at 02:07 AM. Reason: add info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    SAC - I have had a member of their commission belittle me & try to provoke me into a confrontation, do not let them sucker you in - that's what they want. Just speak your peace in a calm manner & let them make asses of themselves if they want. I don't get way they cannot get a grip on the idea that we are simply asking them to follow the law that's it nothing more & nothing less. With leaders like these in place throughout our country it is only a matter of time before history will repeat its self again. Sad, so very sad. Remember guys & gals or forefathers were called: rabble, misfits & even traitors by the powers in charge of their day. History has proved those insults hurled by a corrupt crown to be false. History will also prove those insults launched at us by corrupt & morally bankrupt government officials & others to be false also.

    Actions speak volumes, & their continued disregard for the laws of our Country & State [RO officials & Mr. Witz] paint a very clear picture of who the "bad guys" really are in this battle for civil rights.
    What did they say exactly?

    Does Royal Oak have a time limit on each public comment?

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Yes to the time limit it is 5 minutes.

    Commissioner Drinkwine basically yelled at me saying he's not going to play my games. All I was asking was if they would all read their names & address into the record (to be posted on the web) then I would do the same. They would not so I did not.I was making the point that requiring this information is a bully tactic designed to intimidate citizens from speaking. This information was given by some of our members, who subsequently received harassment or threats. Just another example of "do as I say & not as I do" by them.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Date & Time: Mon, 09/13/2010 - 7:30pm - 8:30pm
    Location: Commission Room - 211 S Williams St, Royal Oak, on the 3rd floor, room 315

    http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Ro...eocode=ADDRESS
    I was afraid it'd be this week Family obligations require me to be home in Lansing by 10 PM this week. How much confidence is there in the meeting actually being over at 8:30. From the minutes I've seen of these meetings they often last well past 10 or even midnight.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    I'm glad you're going to be in royal oak this time SAC, however, I hope your lack of restraint and anger issues don't come into play at the meeting and you handle yourself with dignity.

    also, RO city council is a whole different situation that mr. witz, who is a glorified carney

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    I think there is approximately a zero percent chance of royal oak winning this battle anytime in the near future.

    "this license allows the licensee to carry a concealed pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except the city of royal oak"
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Royal Ok BS

    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    I think there is approximately a zero percent chance of royal oak winning this battle anytime in the near future.
    Guys,
    They're just spinning their wheels. The premption clause was put in after much ado so the laws would be universal across the state. Michigan didn't want every jerkwater town having their own say-so about firearms.They're not gonna change it. There's nothing we can argue at the meeting except that they are dumb for wasting their time and thinking the state would change an old law just for Royal Oak. As close as the cities are around here it could be total chaos to allow it....and the state won't. I doubt if the legislature will even answer them. Let them make asses of themselves instead of reading and following state law.This movement would require a change to the Michigan Constiution itself and that's not gonna happen for a dinky town and their festival.Write to the same legislaters and to the governor if you wish but nothing of this magnitude will ever be approved in this state.
    However if we go to the meetings and let them suck us into losing it or acting irresponsible they would have made a point.If you want to do anyhting just take your guns and sit their with a Chessire cat grin all night.If the media asks ...you can tell them what a joke you think it is. And they'll get even madder.
    Last edited by thekunk47; 09-11-2010 at 12:36 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekunk47 View Post
    Guys,
    They're just spinning their wheels. The premption clause was put in after much ado so the laws would be universal across the state. Michigan didn't want every jerkwater town having their own say-so about firearms.They're not gonna change it. There's nothing we can argue at the meeting except that they are dumb for wasting their time and thinking the state would change an old law just for Royal Oak. As close as the cities are around here it could be total chaos to allow it....and the state won't. I doubt if the legislature will even answer them. Let them make asses of themselves instead of reading and following state law.This movement would require a change to the Michigan Constiution itself and that's not gonna happen for a dinky town and their festival.Write to the same legislaters and to the governor if you wish but nothing of this magnitude will ever be approved in this state.
    However if we go to the meetings and let them suck us into losing it or acting irresponsible they would have made a point.If you want to do anyhting just take your guns and sit their with a Chessire cat grin all night.If the media asks ...you can tell them what a joke you think it is. And they'll get even madder.
    I totally agree. The MI Legislature will be loathe to touch this issue at all, but we do need to write them to make our position known. I will post it later this weekend.

    As for me, I will be there if I am feeling up to it, to remind my fellow residents of Royal Oak just how stupid is this course of action.

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    Regular Member Jerbear1098's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekunk47 View Post
    Guys,
    They're just spinning their wheels. The premption clause was put in after much ado so the laws would be universal across the state. Michigan didn't want every jerkwater town having their own say-so about firearms.They're not gonna change it. There's nothing we can argue at the meeting except that they are dumb for wasting their time and thinking the state would change an old law just for Royal Oak. As close as the cities are around here it could be total chaos to allow it....and the state won't. I doubt if the legislature will even answer them. Let them make asses of themselves instead of reading and following state law.This movement would require a change to the Michigan Constiution itself and that's not gonna happen for a dinky town and their festival.Write to the same legislaters and to the governor if you wish but nothing of this magnitude will ever be approved in this state.
    However if we go to the meetings and let them suck us into losing it or acting irresponsible they would have made a point.If you want to do anyhting just take your guns and sit their with a Chessire cat grin all night.If the media asks ...you can tell them what a joke you think it is. And they'll get even madder.
    Have to agree, with the likely hood of the constitutional convention prop 1 failing, there really isn't much of a stomach to change laws for just one city. See here all the polls so far.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/downlo...9/24947800.pdf
    "It isn't that Liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so" --Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by thekunk47 View Post
    They still don't get it.Even if it was declared a pistol free zone , open carry would still be legal with a CPL.

    True, and they should be reminded of that.

    It's a total waste of their time and it would be a waste of ours to go.

    WHAT!!! Are you serious? No, it is never a waste of time to go, if it wasn't for the hard work and dedication of the OCers who did go, then AB&E would have been gun free, despite the laws!

    Even if by some miracle they got special exemption just for this one city and festival....who cares. I don't wish to spend any of my money there anyway.

    The money isnt the point. The money in fact, is completely irrelevant.

    .
    What could we argue anyway.We know state law and that's what they would have to change.

    The argument is that we have rights, and the exercising of them will not be manipulated.

    Michigan has the smoothest gun laws around.

    WHAT!!! OMG! Permission slips, PFZ's, CPLs in vehicles, no OC on a Bycycle, colleges and schools functioning as governments above the constitution, (waterford being one of them,) municipalities like Royal Oak, What!!! what are you missing here???

    Write your own letters and forget it.

    Thats what will happen indeed, they will just forget it. just look at our struggle with Army74 in Pontiac, or hamaneggs deal, heck, we are honored in his case for the opportunity to pitch in and help, by putting our money where are mouth is.
    OMG!

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerbear1098 View Post
    Have to agree, with the likely hood of the constitutional convention prop 1 failing, there really isn't much of a stomach to change laws for just one city. See here all the polls so far.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/downlo...9/24947800.pdf
    Please do not... not for one moment... think that Royal Oak is the only municipality, or even the only entity or agency, that is contacting legislators in the hopes of changing the law to allow every little whistle stop to make their own gun laws and/or outlawing OC and adding new PFZ's.

    And please do not think that those municipalities are asking for just their own area, or festival, or just OC,... I suspect they are asking for a much broader definition of what a civic "event" might be, perhaps tying it into attendance figures, and making THAT a completely gun free zone. No OC, no OC with a CPL, no CC, no transport, no guns!

    The anti's may be arrogant, sneaky, vile, conniving, devious, and a whole host of other nasty things... but they are NOT stupid. And they don't care what "we the people" want or what the polls say... they will go ahead and ram it down our throats anyway.

    Or maybe I'm just being entirely too suspicious of arrogant power grabbing local wannabe tyrants.

    Please do NOT stop fighting/writing letters/attending council meetings thinking nothing bad can happen... it can... and if we don't continue to fight... it will.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Royal Oak BS

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    OMG!
    No need for anyone to get their panties in a bunch. We don't need to show up there and be boisterous. Quote the preemption law,the fact that other cities have tried this, and Ferndale to it to the Appellate Court and lost. Personally I don't care if Royal Oak falls into a crack and disappears. We just shouldn't let them set a dangerous precedent. Pick your battles and win them with poise and fact. Let them be the ones to use emotion and name calling,not us. It's too bad they don't allow a question and answer type of meeting.It wasn't easy sitting there being called names and being quiet but that's the agenda they have.We should speak our peace and leave.Anything they have to say would be erroneous anyway. I can't believe the lawyer is allowing them to waste their time and money.He should know better.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekunk47 View Post
    No need for anyone to get their panties in a bunch. We don't need to show up there and be boisterous. Quote the preemption law,the fact that other cities have tried this, and Ferndale to it to the Appellate Court and lost. Personally I don't care if Royal Oak falls into a crack and disappears. We just shouldn't let them set a dangerous precedent. Pick your battles and win them with poise and fact. Let them be the ones to use emotion and name calling,not us. It's too bad they don't allow a question and answer type of meeting.It wasn't easy sitting there being called names and being quiet but that's the agenda they have.We should speak our peace and leave.Anything they have to say would be erroneous anyway. I can't believe the lawyer is allowing them to waste their time and money.He should know better.
    Many people miss the fact the City attorney's & Police Chief's serve at the pleasure of their Mayor/Council they can be fired quite easily by them. Hence. a conflict of interest between upholding the law & keeping ones job arises & guess how that battle goes 99% of the time?

  25. #25
    Regular Member RandyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekunk47 View Post
    Guys,
    They're just spinning their wheels. The premption clause was put in after much ado so the laws would be universal across the state. Michigan didn't want every jerkwater town having their own say-so about firearms.They're not gonna change it. There's nothing we can argue at the meeting except that they are dumb for wasting their time and thinking the state would change an old law just for Royal Oak. As close as the cities are around here it could be total chaos to allow it....and the state won't. I doubt if the legislature will even answer them. Let them make asses of themselves instead of reading and following state law.This movement would require a change to the Michigan Constiution itself and that's not gonna happen for a dinky town and their festival.Write to the same legislaters and to the governor if you wish but nothing of this magnitude will ever be approved in this state.
    However if we go to the meetings and let them suck us into losing it or acting irresponsible they would have made a point.If you want to do anyhting just take your guns and sit their with a Chessire cat grin all night.If the media asks ...you can tell them what a joke you think it is. And they'll get even madder.
    I agree also, due to a previously scheduled open carry seminar me and the other MOC coordinators will not be able to make it.

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