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Thread: Help..new to open carry with questions

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    Help..new to open carry with questions

    ok now i'm really confused here. I was reading on MICHIGANOPENCARRY.ORG site about pistol free zones. What are the pistol free zones for NON-CPL holders open carry, pistol free zones for CPL holder concealed carry and pistol free zones for CPL holders open carry. From what the site says and the state police website the zones are the same for non-CPL holders open carry, and CPL holders when concealing. Am I right? I am also confused on how a CPL holder can open carry in all pistol free zones. I did read your 3 fold letter on the site and thats what confused me. Thanks for your help!! I really want to feel confident on open carry and the law so if I get stoped by law enforcement I want to know my rights ahead of time. Thanks.

    extra: called westland police and they told me you can open carry in all areas except in no pistol zones. He kept saying that a CPL does not give you any more right on open carry of a firearm as cpl is only conceal carry and open carry is just a state law. Isnt there something stating different in the law about that? if so where at?

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!

    Yes, MI Law can be confusing and even most Police Departments do not have the correct information. I have attached some easier to utilize information. I will provide some additional links for review.

    Firearms Restrictions (Open Carry without CPL): http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d

    Firearms Restrictions (CPL Pistol-Free Zones): http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

    Michigan Attorney General Opinion #7113 (Open Carry allowed in CPL Pistol Free Zones): http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    extra: called westland police and they told me you can open carry in all areas except in no pistol zones. He kept saying that a CPL does not give you any more right on open carry of a firearm as cpl is only conceal carry and open carry is just a state law. Isnt there something stating different in the law about that? if so where at?
    The Westland Police Department appears to not be aware of Michigan Attorney General Opinion #7113.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    The Westland Police Department appears to not be aware of Michigan Attorney General Opinion #7113.
    Even worse, it appears the Westland PD is not aware of sub section C. of MCL 750.234d

    CPL holders can open carry in a LOT more places than non-cpl holders.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Please read the following thread that will help you in the event you have a Police/LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) interaction.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...H-RINSE-REPEAT

    We also suggest obtaining an Audio Recorder at a minimum that can be used in the event of issues occurring. We have made great strides with Open Carry here in MI, but the possibility still exists that a Police Officer/Department may infringe upon your rights (knowingly or unknowingly) and/or other persons may react strongly to your exercise of rights. My experiences have been overwhelmingly positive and most of that is the way you carry yourself while Open Carrying.

    We also suggest you come to an event or contact someone in your area to OC with at first - it helps you to get "over the hump" and provides a better sense of confidence.

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    Carry Chart - amended.pdf

    This should help, its in the following thread.
    Michigan open carry reference chart


    Keep in mind that you need a CPL to carry in a vehicle, including bicycles.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-11-2010 at 01:35 PM.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Please read the following thread that will help you in the event you have a Police/LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) interaction.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...H-RINSE-REPEAT

    We also suggest obtaining an Audio Recorder at a minimum that can be used in the event of issues occurring. We have made great strides with Open Carry here in MI, but the possibility still exists that a Police Officer/Department may infringe upon your rights (knowingly or unknowingly) and/or other persons may react strongly to your exercise of rights. My experiences have been overwhelmingly positive and most of that is the way you carry yourself while Open Carrying.

    We also suggest you come to an event or contact someone in your area to OC with at first - it helps you to get "over the hump" and provides a better sense of confidence.
    Good advice!

    Allow me to add.... there are video with audio recorders that can be had for the price of a just audio recorder. I prefer video with audio because then there is no question about who said what... their face is right there.

    And allow me to expand on the "how you carry yourself while Open Carrying" part of PDinDetroit's post.

    I understand that everyday when I am out and about wearing my sidearm I am an ambassador for gun rights and my appearance and behavior influences the perspectives and attitudes about guns in public of everyone who sees me. .. including LEO's and their decisions on whether to "check me out" or not. With that in mind I'm clean and neat in my appearance and I behave in a peaceful, calm, polite, and confident manner. Even during the extremely few negative incidents I've been involved in I maintained that peaceful, calm, polite, and confident manner.... knowing the entire thing is being captured on video and audio for later if needed.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    They still don't know pistol law? Come on now!

    This is the same town that had the "open carry incident" near the secretary of state office. Where an open carrier was illegally: detained, threatened by police & then ticketed for brandishing even though his sidearm was holstered. This prompted action from MOC & I attended the OC picnic in April of this year held just blocks from their police station. Their chief issued a city wide bulletin explaining OC was legal. Also be aware this is dougwg's home town & I'm sure he has been in communication with them regarding pistol law. Maybe it's time for senior MOC officials to speak with the chief again & make sure his officers haven't reverted back to their old ways.

    This example only strengthens the need for case law on OC/pistol carry laws in MI. Just my honest opinion here. Maybe Westland would be a good test case, hell I'll be the guinea pig if no one else will?

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    Can I video and record with my phone while a officer is talking to me? Can he tell me not to record him? Also does a store have to have something posted for me not to carry in a store or area with out a cpl.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    in Michigan as long as your conversation takes place in a spot where the party has no expectation of privacy, you can record. if a store has a sign, you can still go in, but you must leave when asked

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    If that store has a liquor license, regardless if they are currently selling alcohol, then you cannot go onto the premises of the establishment without a CPL.

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    Could you explain abit more on expectation of privacy and maybe an example of where that would be. I'm unsure of what your saying. Also want to thank everyone that has been helping me understand laws and info on open carry. I still feel kinda weird and out of place walking while open carry because it feels like I'm the only one doing it in my area in Mt.pleasant.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    Can I video and record with my phone while a officer is talking to me? Can he tell me not to record him? Also does a store have to have something posted for me not to carry in a store or area with out a cpl.
    You are allowed to record "any" conversation of which "you" are part of. You do not have to inform them you are recording or have their permission to do so.
    The "wire tap" laws pertain to recording 3rd party conversations of which "you" are NOT a participant of the conversation being recorded.
    Yes the cop can ask you anything...but he has no authority to make you stop recording or to prevent you from doing so.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    A scenario... and I chose a bathroom because the "entitlement to privacy" thing is easy to understand in a bathroom.... and a "casual conversation" with an off duty cop happened to me at the A&W in Mason.

    Cop starts a conversation.. or even a "stop" with you in a bathroom. There are also 3 other people in that bathroom talking. You record the conversation between you and the officer but your recorder also picks up the unrelated conversation of the other 3 guys.

    Ok.. a bathroom is a place where there is a very high entitlement to privacy... and the law requires the consent of everyone being recorded in a place with an entitlement to privacy.

    1. Is it legal to record a "casual conversation" between you and the cop?
    2. Is it legal to record a "stop" involving you and the cop?
    3. Is it legal to inadvertently record the unrelated conversation of the other 3 guys while recording the conversation between you and the cop?

    I'll give my understanding of the law first hoping folks will pick it apart and I'll learn more.

    1. No, it is not legal to record a "casual conversation" even with a cop because even the cop, on or off duty during a "casual conversation", has an entitlement to privacy in a bathroom.

    2. This I am unclear on whether or not the place would determine if consent is needed during an official encounter. Somehow I suspect it might.

    3. No, it is not legal to record... even inadvertently during a "stop"... the unrelated conversation of the other 3 guys because they all have an entitlement to privacy in a bathroom... plus, since you yourself are not involved in that conversation of the 3 guys, it would be eavesdropping to record it.... unless you get the permission of the 3 guys to record.

    I think 1. and 3. would not only make the recording inadmissible in court but would also leave you open to charges of violating the recording laws.

    I also think that if, during a "casual conversation" or a "stop" with an officer in a bathroom, a grunt or passing of gas from a stall is recorded the permission of the grunter/passer would be required to make the recording legal. No permission equals an illegal recording because of the "entitlement to privacy" thing.

    I eagerly await the comments of the more learned amongst us.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    A scenario... and I chose a bathroom because the "entitlement to privacy" thing is easy to understand in a bathroom.... and a "casual conversation" with an off duty cop happened to me at the A&W in Mason.
    Can you cite any MCLs/AGOs/Case Law for your opinions?

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    I disagree with your interpretation bike...

    I think you can record any conversation you are part of, even if it happens in a place that has an expectation of privacy, ie: the bathroom, because eavesdropping is the recording of the private discourse of OTHERS.

    Any person who is present or who is not present during a private conversation and who wilfully uses any device to eavesdrop upon the conversation without the consent of all parties
    http://legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28uj0...20conversation

    “eavesdrop” is to “overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private discourse of others
    also, if you inadvertently record the conversation of others in the above scenario, it would appear to be lawful if you were not wilfully trying to record their conversation.

    i am not a lawyer, and i did not search for any case law on the subject, just the mcl's
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-11-2010 at 10:13 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Can you cite any MCLs/AGOs/Case Law for your opinions?
    These are the laws that formed my beliefs of what the laws say that I stated in my prior post...

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.539d Installation, placement, or use of device for observing, recording, transmitting, photographing or eavesdropping in private place.
    Sec. 539d.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not do either of the following:
    (a) Install, place, or use in any private place, without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy in that place, any device for observing, recording, transmitting, photographing, or eavesdropping upon the sounds or events in that place.


    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.539a Definitions.

    Sec. 539a.

    As used in sections 539a to 539i:

    (1) “Private place” means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from casual or hostile intrusion or surveillance but does not include a place to which the public or substantial group of the public has access.

    (2) “Eavesdrop” or “eavesdropping” means to overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private discourse of others without the permission of all persons engaged in the discourse. Neither this definition or any other provision of this act shall modify or affect any law or regulation concerning interception, divulgence or recording of messages transmitted by communications common carriers.

    (3) “Surveillance” means to secretly observe the activities of another person for the purpose of spying upon and invading the privacy of the person observed.

    (4) “Person” means any individual, partnership, corporation or association.

    Hence, to me, those laws say anyone... anyone at all, including a cop,... who is in a private place where there is an entitlement to privacy... must give permission to be recorded whether conversing with me or not.... or farting.

    If I have the incorrect beliefs... please, and I say this in all sincerity, correct me.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post

    (1) “Private place” means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from casual or hostile intrusion or surveillance but does not include a place to which the public or substantial group of the public has access.
    This is where I see a possible argument against leaving your recorder running during a bathroom break.

    Thoughts?

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    how about don't talk to people in the restroom? if someone talks to me in a bathroom I get uncomfortable anyway.

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    The question was more about recording strangers in the bathroom unintentionally, while questioning the legality of a discussion with an officer, than in talking to those strangers directly.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    Could you explain abit more on expectation of privacy . . .
    I knew that response about "expectation of privacy" was just going to beg another question from you.

    It does not apply to police officers engaged in their duties. That is considered "public activity". Case law example:

    U.S. Court of Appeals in San Francisco:
    "It is undisputed that Johnson recorded Chief Nelson while he was on duty performing an official function in a public place," Judge Kim M. Wardlaw wrote for the 2-1 majority. "Johnson did not violate the Privacy Act when he recorded this official, public activity."
    http://www.rcfp.org/news/2004/1105johnso.html

    Official interaction with a police officer (voluntary stop, detainment, or arrest) is public activity. Michigan is a "one party" state when it comes to recording where there is no "expectation of privacy". So you are without question in the clear to record interactions with police officers, when they are acting in their law enforcement capacity, without their knowledge or consent, in Michigan.
    Last edited by DanM; 09-12-2010 at 01:23 PM.

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    Thanks again for helping me understand some laws. I just wish all the police would be more like all of you on helping people. But as we all know there are always police that just don't know the law and think they can make up or change a law if they want to. If I have anymore questions i'll be back

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    (1) “Private place” means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from casual or hostile intrusion or surveillance but does not include a place to which the public or substantial group of the public has access.
    I'd say "all males" (or females) constitutes a "substantial" group. Therefore, a public restroom which has open access (ex: no lock on the door) in which more than one person can freely use the facilities and walk in or out unrestricted is NOT a "private" place as defined here.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I think that you would have a hard time using this rationale if caught video tapping people in a public bathroom as there is SOME degree of privacy associated with it.

    I agree that you can record public servants (including LEOs) performing their duties in public places including a public bathroom.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I think that you would have a hard time using this rationale if caught video tapping people in a public bathroom as there is SOME degree of privacy associated with it.

    I agree that you can record public servants (including LEOs) performing their duties in public places including a public bathroom.
    I tend to agree with you on the part in blue yet I'm not so sure.... however... would inadvertently catching a separate and unrelated conversation between other people, or a sound resulting from a natural process, without the permission of those folks while recording an LEO performing his/her lawful duties in a bathroom make the recording not only inadmissible in court but also an illegal recording?

    Scary thought... gotta check all the stalls before hitting the "record" button?

    I know I left my recorder running while visiting the bathroom at a restaurant once... and thought to myself... "Dang! I can't record in here!" then I realized I was all alone so I gave myself permission to record the waterfall in progress.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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