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Help..new to open carry with questions

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
Could you explain abit more on expectation of privacy . . .

I knew that response about "expectation of privacy" was just going to beg another question from you.

It does not apply to police officers engaged in their duties. That is considered "public activity". Case law example:

U.S. Court of Appeals in San Francisco:
"It is undisputed that Johnson recorded Chief Nelson while he was on duty performing an official function in a public place," Judge Kim M. Wardlaw wrote for the 2-1 majority. "Johnson did not violate the Privacy Act when he recorded this official, public activity."
http://www.rcfp.org/news/2004/1105johnso.html

Official interaction with a police officer (voluntary stop, detainment, or arrest) is public activity. Michigan is a "one party" state when it comes to recording where there is no "expectation of privacy". So you are without question in the clear to record interactions with police officers, when they are acting in their law enforcement capacity, without their knowledge or consent, in Michigan.
 
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jasonman17

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
60
Location
Mt.Pleasant
Thanks again for helping me understand some laws. I just wish all the police would be more like all of you on helping people. But as we all know there are always police that just don't know the law and think they can make up or change a law if they want to. If I have anymore questions i'll be back :D
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
(1) “Private place” means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from casual or hostile intrusion or surveillance but does not include a place to which the public or substantial group of the public has access.

I'd say "all males" (or females) constitutes a "substantial" group. Therefore, a public restroom which has open access (ex: no lock on the door) in which more than one person can freely use the facilities and walk in or out unrestricted is NOT a "private" place as defined here.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I think that you would have a hard time using this rationale if caught video tapping people in a public bathroom as there is SOME degree of privacy associated with it.

I agree that you can record public servants (including LEOs) performing their duties in public places including a public bathroom.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
I think that you would have a hard time using this rationale if caught video tapping people in a public bathroom as there is SOME degree of privacy associated with it.

I agree that you can record public servants (including LEOs) performing their duties in public places including a public bathroom.

I tend to agree with you on the part in blue yet I'm not so sure.... however... would inadvertently catching a separate and unrelated conversation between other people, or a sound resulting from a natural process, without the permission of those folks while recording an LEO performing his/her lawful duties in a bathroom make the recording not only inadmissible in court but also an illegal recording?

Scary thought... gotta check all the stalls before hitting the "record" button?

I know I left my recorder running while visiting the bathroom at a restaurant once... and thought to myself... "Dang! I can't record in here!" then I realized I was all alone so I gave myself permission to record the waterfall in progress.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I think that you would have a hard time using this rationale if caught video tapping people in a public bathroom as there is SOME degree of privacy associated with it.

I agree that you can record public servants (including LEOs) performing their duties in public places including a public bathroom.

I think Venator made the distinction here between video taping and audio taping. Videotaping someone's backside while ******* is more intrusive on privacy than recording the sound of tinkling water.
 

lapeer20m

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
928
Location
Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
It seems there are two important points.

One, that eavesdropping is defined as: the recording of the private discourse of OTHERS. If you are included in the conversation, it is not eavesdropping, because it is not the private discorse of others. That means that if you are part of the conversation, it is not evesdropping.

Also, the word "willfully" in the eavesdropping law would presumably make it permissible to accidentally record others. but again, i have not searched for any caselaw on the subject.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
I think Venator made the distinction here between video taping and audio taping. Videotaping someone's backside while ******* is more intrusive on privacy than recording the sound of tinkling water.

Ummmm.... I ordinarily use a video with audio recorder............ but in the bathroom I was veeeerrrry! careful where the camera was directed.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
-snip-

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.539a Definitions.

Sec. 539a.

As used in sections 539a to 539i:

(1) “Private place” means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from casual or hostile intrusion or surveillance but does not include a place to which the public or substantial group of the public has access.

(2) “Eavesdrop” or “eavesdropping” means to overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private discourse of others without the permission of all persons engaged in the discourse. Neither this definition or any other provision of this act shall modify or affect any law or regulation concerning interception, divulgence or recording of messages transmitted by communications common carriers.

-snip-

It seems there are two important points.

One, that eavesdropping is defined as: the recording of the private discourse of OTHERS. If you are included in the conversation, it is not eavesdropping, because it is not the private discorse of others. That means that if you are part of the conversation, it is not evesdropping.

Also, the word "willfully" in the eavesdropping law would presumably make it permissible to accidentally record others. but again, i have not searched for any caselaw on the subject.
\

I understand what the definition of "eavesdropping" is in the law... yet the part in blue in the law above seems to be a separate definition standing on it's own... and there isn't mention of "willful" or "accidental"....

So which do we go by? Both?

I suspect LE and/or a judge would choose whichever one results in an arrest or a conviction.
 
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jasonman17

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
60
Location
Mt.Pleasant
Night time open carry gas station

ok I got another question, well two really. First is does anyone have more of a problem or come in contact or conflict with people/police at night at a gas station/party store than in the day time.

Second, can you open carry (with no cpl) at a gas station and get gas for your car but what if they sell beer and liquor at that station? can you just prepay with your card or can you till go in to pay for your gas? My mind is always athinking!!! :lol: Thanks guys!!!
 
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PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
ok I got another question, well two really. First is does anyone have more of a problem or come in contact or conflict with people/police at night at a gas station/party store than in the day time.

Second, can you open carry (with no cpl) at a gas station and get gas for your car but what if they sell beer and liquor at that station? can you just prepay with your card or can you till go in to pay for your gas? My mind is always athinking!!! :lol: Thanks guys!!!

I really haven't had many problems, day or night.

If they have a Liquor License, you cannot OC without a CPL there.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Keep thinking. :)

I have not seen a difference in day/night OC, but when the same store has fewer people in it, more people will notice.

RE gas stations who sell alcohol. No you cannot go onto the premisis of the station without a CPL.

There is a link to a site that you can check to see if a buisiness has a license. I'll see if I can find it.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theater.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
there isn't mention of "willful" or "accidental"....


750.539c Eavesdropping upon private conversation.


Sec. 539c.

Any person who is present or who is not present during a private conversation and who wilfully uses any device to eavesdrop upon the conversation without the consent of all parties thereto, or who knowingly aids, employs or procures another person to do the same in violation of this section, is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.


Bronson
 

jasonman17

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
60
Location
Mt.Pleasant
ok another question. I see some city have ordinances against open carry that I know is illegal to have. My question is can they still arrest you under that illegal ordinance?
 
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Bikenut

Guest
ok another question. I see some city have ordinances against open carry that I know is illegal to have. My question is can they still arrest you under that illegal ordinance?

The police can arrest anyone for anything... the real question is whether or not that arrest is a legal arrest and will be prosecuted and/or will hold up in court.

Since MCL 123.1102

FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
Act 319 of 1990


123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.



forbids any local ordinances stricter than State Law an illegal ordinance cannot be enforced. Enforced... doesn't mean a person won't get arrested and go to court.

But if a person IS arrested for an illegal ordinance they have cause to file a lawsuit.

Good thing is... all the work done by many folks on this forum to bring many of those illegal ordinances to the attention of municipal councils and local police depts. ... I believe an arrest based upon an illegal ordinance is highly unlikely at this time.

But if you know the ordinance is illegal perhaps you would be interested in bringing that illegality to the attention of the city in question and get the ordinance changed to comply with State Law. Sometimes all that is necessary are a few emails showing how the ordinance violates MCL 123.1102 to get it changed........ and sometimes it is necessary to attend council meetings, perhaps more than once, to make the point.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I think that you would have a hard time using this rationale if caught video tapping people in a public bathroom as there is SOME degree of privacy associated with it.

I agree that you can record public servants (including LEOs) performing their duties in public places including a public bathroom.

I saw a video last night on one of those home video shows that was taken in a womens bathroom (Looked like a dorm bathroom, lots of stalls.) of a bunch of drunk co-eds acting stupid. I doubt everyone in the video consented to the taping as some came out of the stalls with a surprised look on their face.

Also don't know what state, but most states have very similar taping/recording laws.
 
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