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Thread: ANTI-GUN "T.G.I. Friday's" in Sterling closes it's doors...

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Wink ANTI-GUN "T.G.I. Friday's" in Sterling closes it's doors...

    From VCDL: http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html#TGI Fridays

    Postcard sent:
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    The problem, as I see it, with that sort of communication, is that if you are wrong about a connection between gun bans and store closings, the reader just laughs at you.

    Alternatively, the sender seems vindictive. "Haha! You booted us, and now you are closing."

    I'm betting the store owners saw business trends and income graphs, and will totally know whether the gun ban was the cause of their problem. From another angle, I'm inclined to think that if the business saw a precipitous drop in business coincident with a gun ban, they would have reversed the policy pretty quick. Business is business.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The problem, as I see it, with that sort of communication, is that if you are wrong about a connection between gun bans and store closings, the reader just laughs at you.

    Alternatively, the sender seems vindictive. "Haha! You booted us, and now you are closing."

    I'm betting the store owners saw business trends and income graphs, and will totally know whether the gun ban was the cause of their problem. From another angle, I'm inclined to think that if the business saw a precipitous drop in business coincident with a gun ban, they would have reversed the policy pretty quick. Business is business.
    First, you mean readerS. :-)

    I am told by others that my postcards get read by MANY. The US Postal folks. The mailroom crew, the secretaries and managers. All of THEM probably don't get the trends and income graphs explained to them. They just see my comment on the ban and a store close. I think it works.. and if not.. who cares? They are already not serving my needs.. so.. I don't care if they like or approve of my methods.
    From your "other angle".. Fuddruckers loved us... in Ashburn, in Herndon, Annandale, etc. They have all told me. Then corporate stepped in and banned guns. Their bottom line was hurt.. they TOLD ME so... but the policy had not been reversed "pretty quick".. not at all in fact. The franchise operator in Ashburn said.. come back.. WE still welcome you! I said not if one penny goes back to corporate that is calling for the ban.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    First, you mean readerS. :-)

    I am told by others that my postcards get read by MANY. The US Postal folks. The mailroom crew, the secretaries and managers. All of THEM probably don't get the trends and income graphs explained to them. They just see my comment on the ban and a store close. I think it works.. and if not.. who cares? They are already not serving my needs.. so.. I don't care if they like or approve of my methods.
    From your "other angle".. Fuddruckers loved us... in Ashburn, in Herndon, Annandale, etc. They have all told me. Then corporate stepped in and banned guns. Their bottom line was hurt.. they TOLD ME so... but the policy had not been reversed "pretty quick".. not at all in fact. The franchise operator in Ashburn said.. come back.. WE still welcome you! I said not if one penny goes back to corporate that is calling for the ban.
    Come on, Ed. Think for a minute. You're better than that.

    Also, essentially, you are crowing because senior management screwed up, putting a whole lot of people out of work in a very bad economy.
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-12-2010 at 01:53 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I don't get it. They are anti gun. They are on the VCDL anti gun list. They have been told before by me (and I guess other gun owners) that no guns = no money and we won't go there anymore. When they do close their doors, I send them a gentle "I told ya so..BUT you still have time to change for the better and change your policy to allow lawful carry" and you don't like that I did it? Are their potato skins REALLY that good??
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I don't get it. They are anti gun. They are on the VCDL anti gun list. They have been told before by me (and I guess other gun owners) that no guns = no money and we won't go there anymore. When they do close their doors, I send them a gentle "I told ya so..BUT you still have time to change for the better and change your policy to allow lawful carry" and you don't like that I did it? Are their potato skins REALLY that good??
    Ed, Citizen is a Diplomat of sorts. His approach is probably the most ethical and intelligent way. On the other hand, I'm a loose canon. You fall somewhere in between.

    Obviously, I don't have a problem with your approach except maybe you didn't enclose a fish wrapped in a newspaper

    I also don't see any problems with Citizen's method. It balances out.

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    Another one bites the dust!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    His approach is probably the most ethical and intelligent way.. I also don't see any problems with Citizen's method.
    Wait.. I missed his approach/suggestion. Did he write to Carlson or call the manager? What was his ethical and intelligent way? I missed it.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Wait.. I missed his approach/suggestion. Did he write to Carlson or call the manager? What was his ethical and intelligent way? I missed it.

    Citizen
    The problem, as I see it, with that sort of communication, is that if you are wrong about a connection between gun bans and store closings, the reader just laughs at you.

    Alternatively, the sender seems vindictive. "Haha! You booted us, and now you are closing."

    I'm betting the store owners saw business trends and income graphs, and will totally know whether the gun ban was the cause of their problem. From another angle, I'm inclined to think that if the business saw a precipitous drop in business coincident with a gun ban, they would have reversed the policy pretty quick. Business is business.
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    Ed, Citizen is a Diplomat of sorts. His opinion is probably the most ethical and intelligent way. On the other hand, I'm a loose canon. You fall somewhere in between.

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    Ed, you know I like and respect you, and I flatter myself by thinking you place some value on my opinion. In this case, however, I think these postcards are not a good idea. First, you're positing (in the postcards) that the restaurants are closing because they don't allow lawful gun owners to carry in their establishments. I think you're promoting the fallacy that somehow correlation = causation, which I know you know isn't true. I think it's a pretty good guess to say that the recent restaurant closings have far more to do with the dreadful recession we're in than with having us not eat there. I understand what you're trying to do with this, but it comes off as petty and a little vindictive, and IMO it's the equivalent of kicking someone when they are down. In the end, it doesn't do anything to help the cause of promoting gun rights, and it makes you look less than you are.

    Just my opinion.

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    FWIW I tend to agree with Citizen et al. I'm quite certain their firearm ban isn't the cause of their demise. It may have hastened it, albeit very very slightly. I don't think that postcard helps our cause even a little bit, and probably hurts it.

    I applaud the effort you put forth in the fight for furthering our rights though.

    Regards

    Brian

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Alienation

    Alienating a portion of your potential customer base is stupid. Stupid "kills" business. Was the loss of gun owner's business significant? Who the heck knows? One thing I can say for sure, our business could have helped keep the place afloat but we had no reason to do so. ******* off potential customers in a down economy is business suicide. T G I Fridays pulled the trigger on themselves.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    Alienating a portion of your potential customer base is stupid. Stupid "kills" business. Was the loss of gun owner's business significant? Who the heck knows? One thing I can say for sure, our business could have helped keep the place afloat but we had no reason to do so. ******* off potential customers in a down economy is business suicide. T G I Fridays pulled the trigger on themselves.
    Exactly my point. Thank you.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    The point is, it makes management think. Having any portion of your customer base abandon your business is not good. Next time, if they get a next time, they just might change their policy.

    Ed is a private citizen, free to express his thoughts. I don't think his cards are any more offensive than any other interaction OCers have with other antis as they are encountered in society.

    The only thing I might have changed would be to add another point, that if they had changed their policy as we had asked them to, we very well may have brought several large groups of customers for dinner, just to thank them!

    Just my thoughts.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    SNIP One thing I can say for sure, our business could have helped keep the place afloat but we had no reason to do so.
    I think this speaks to the main underlying point--mis-assigning causation/too great a certainty.

    Can you really say with certainty that enough gun owners were boycotting that, had they not boycotted, their business would be sufficient to keep the stores open?

    How many gun owners would have to eat at that TGIF every week in order to lift the store above the make-break point? Meaning, how many additional customers of any stripe would have to eat at that TGIF every week in order to lift the store above the make-break point? Seven? Thirty five? Sixty? One hundred?

    Realize that seven a week equals one gun owner a day--every day, every week, every month. Thirty five a week equals five a day, every day, every week, every month.

    How do we know that even with the gun owners, the store wouldn't have closed?

    We just don't know. We have no way to know, without looking not only at their books, but all the other factors that went into the company's decision--things like corporate cash flow, tax write-off opportunities being taken, a deliberate regional or national contraction to reduce management and supply expenses to increase the survival of the remaining structure in a bad economy.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    How do we know that even with the gun owners, the store wouldn't have closed?
    We don't. So let's go with what we DO know. They banned gun owners and they closed. Maybe if they did not ban gun owners they could have survived longer and got thru some rough times. Sweetwater Tavern and Olive Garden are in the same park and business is flourishing. WAIT times every weekend.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    We don't. So let's go with what we DO know. They banned gun owners and they closed. Maybe if they did not ban gun owners they could have survived longer and got thru some rough times. Sweetwater Tavern and Olive Garden are in the same park and business is flourishing. WAIT times every weekend.
    Its the same problem, Ed. Certainty. You are right, maybe they wouldn't have closed. But, TGIF will know for sure, whereas we only have a maybe. TGIF will know all the factors that went into the decision, whereas we are only guessing.

    And, I can make a few estimates. See my post above. Do your really think that there were so many gun owners eating there every day of every week of every month that their withdrawal was what caused the closing? In light of all the other factors that might have gone into the decision besides the income of the restaurant?

    And, not just all gun owners, but only those gun owners who 1) knew of their anti-gun stance and 2) were so put out as to deliberately withhold their business? Sounds like a somewhat small circle of gun owners if you ask me.

    Alternatively, we are in a way telling TGIF that if they lift the ban, and reopen the store, we can assure them of enough business to be worthwhile keeping the store open. If we cannot give them that assurance, then we can't really say the reverse either--that the ban caused the closing.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You are right, maybe they wouldn't have closed.
    Thank you.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Ed is a private citizen, free to express his thoughts. I don't think his cards are any more offensive than any other interaction OCers have with other antis as they are encountered in society.


    Just my thoughts.

    TFred
    And they are good thoughts too TFred!
    No one is trying to tell ED how to act or what to send.

    Citizen offered a suggestion, and one I mildly agree with, but all it was. was a suggestion.

    That's always been a strong point of this forum. Ideas get fine tuned.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    I am all for sending the postcards!!!

    The banning of cash-in-hand-ready-to-spend-it-in-their-reataurant-OCers was a bad business decision and probably symptomatic of other bad decisions.

    The boycott might not have pushed them over the edge but if they are honest they will need to look at it as a "part" of their downfall. How big we will never know. These people will probably be staying in the same industry so getting that linkage in their mind may change their future patterns of decision making.

    If the postcard doesn't change an anti's mind who cares, they were already anti!
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 09-13-2010 at 09:35 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    I am all for sending the postcards!!!

    The banning of cash-in-hand-ready-to-spend-it-in-their-reataurant-OCers was a bad business decision and probably symptomatic of other bad decisions.

    The boycott might not have pushed them over the edge but if they are honest they will need to look at it as a "part" of their downfall. How big we will never know. These people will probably be staying in the same industry so getting that linkage in their mind may change their future patterns of decision making.

    If the postcard doesn't change an anti's mind who cares, they were already anti!
    I can't speak for Citizen but the way I saw it was something Ed pointed out. Lots of people read the postcards. Upper Administration probably does NOT. It get's file thirteened right off.

    Now all these people who are on the lower level, reading it, will talk to all the other people who are now out of a job and can't buy junior a GI Joe with the Kung Fu grip for Christmas.

    While a postcard to a large Corporation misses the intended target,(Administration) it may well make fence sitters anti's because they feel gun people caused their trouble.

    The second reason is that they may have gone out of business because the accountant embezzled all the money.
    Gun owners look a little silly taking credit for their demise.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Lots of people read the postcards. Upper Administration probably does NOT.
    I get a response from "upper management" on about 3/4 of the post cards I send to them.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    We don't. So let's go with what we DO know. They banned gun owners and they closed. Maybe if they did not ban gun owners they could have survived longer and got thru some rough times. Sweetwater Tavern and Olive Garden are in the same park and business is flourishing. WAIT times every weekend.
    Exactly. I liked some of thier Bourbon flavored menu items, but have not been back to spend a dime for a while now.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    The only thing I might take issue with is the hint that a business closed only because of their policy of turning away gun toters. Otherwise it's fine in my opinion to at least point out that the business chased away a portion of its potential business by implementing said policy.

    The Waterstone Pizza restaurant that we are discussing in the Lynchburg thread is such a place. Although the restaurant may be doing fine financially now, as a result of their "No Guns / Weapons" policy I have not only refused to go there on my own, I have not shared any further endorsement of their products like I had before the policy change, I have told my friends that I would not join them if / when they schedule dinners or meetings there and they have lost out on myriad numbers of people that I could have introduced to the restaurant by asking them to join my wife and I for dinner. Even if a business implements such a policy and only potentially turns away one or two sidearm carriers a day each of those sidearm carriers have friends and family that will be affected by this decision as the whole group will likely end up spending their money elsewhere when they dine with the sidearm carrier.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    The Waterstone Pizza restaurant that we are discussing in the Lynchburg thread is such a place.
    Want me to send them a postcard? Send me a photo of their sign. :-)
    Carry On.

    Ed

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