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Property owner fatally shoots attacker on his property (S Kitsap)

gogodawgs

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Do you have to wait for the swing?

Or, if you see someone with a steel bar should you be in fear for your life? Let's say there is an unknown car in my driveway and I go out to look. Walking towards me a man has a steel bar and he is within 15 feet of me or so. It is 11:30 at night. I would be in fear for my life I am almost sure.

Hear, hear!

In my humble opinion, as soon as that initial swing started, all need to further communicate with the aggressor ceased.

At that point, lethal force in self defense may commence.

(For many civilians, not necessarily as well trained or practiced as a State Patrol Trooper, even having a potential aggressor step forward after being told to stand down or otherwise warned is sometimes enough, depending on conditions, to make lethal force in self defense legitimate.)

BTW, thanks for popping up that link again, deanf. Every time I follow a link to that article I read the whole thing again. A lot of good information concentrated there.

Interesting over here in Spokane LE is making a big deal out of Pastor Creach leaving the safety of his home to investigate a suspicious car on his property. Of course the suspicious car was an unmarked police car and Creach ended up dead. Kind of a double standard again so I got to agree with Devildoc5. I am not faulting the trooper here just pointing out difference between the perception of a civilan and a LEO that should not be.


Exactly! The perception in these two cases seems to be widely different.

Did not the trooper cease being a civilian when he declared himself a law-enforcement officer?

Good question. Does an off-duty LEO ever cease being a civilian when he encounters this type of situation?
 

Deleted_User

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snip

Good question. Does an off-duty LEO ever cease being a civilian when he encounters this type of situation?

An off duty LEO will identify themselves IMMEDIATELY to sway the outcome if they think it will. I'm not saying this is the case here, but where does the law state they must, can, can't, or what capacity they are acting under? Great thought
 

Beretta92FSLady

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An off duty LEO will identify themselves IMMEDIATELY to sway the outcome if they think it will. I'm not saying this is the case here, but where does the law state they must, can, can't, or what capacity they are acting under? Great thought

You raise a good question. I wonder if the officer yelling "police" if he is not on duty is as legal as a civilian yelling "police."
 

Johnny Law

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Did not the trooper cease being a civilian when he declared himself a law-enforcement officer?



The answer is yes. Police have the option when off duty to act as a civilian, or a cop. The second you identify yourself as an officer, you are considered on duty/on the clock. Off duty/plainclothes Cops then possess full police powers and authority whether or not the bg believes them to be an Officer or not. Even if you choose to not identify yourself as an Officer, you will still be held to a higher standard than a civilian, as you have the training to deal with critical/deadly force situations.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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You could yell "stop in the name of the law!"
Since we are the law and it is ours to take into our own hands.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but what does making that statement imply, that you are enforcing the law? Civilians have a legal right to enforce the law, I am just wondering if someone said stop in the name of the law, if they would be setting themselves up for being called out and accused of impersonating a police officer.

I would say something to the effect of, "I am armed, don't come any closer." In that statement I have established that I am armed, and that I do not want them to come any closer to me, now it is up to the person whether or not they want to test my resolve.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I am not trying to be argumentative, but what does making that statement imply, that you are enforcing the law? Civilians have a legal right to enforce the law, I am just wondering if someone said stop in the name of the law, if they would be setting themselves up for being called out and accused of impersonating a police officer.

I would say something to the effect of, "I am armed, don't come any closer." In that statement I have established that I am armed, and that I do not want them to come any closer to me, now it is up to the person whether or not they want to test my resolve.

That's what I get for not putting the smiley face after my first statement. :lol:

I was trying to make the point similar to what you are saying that we don't have to be police to enforce the law.

Remember it isn't only in defense of ourselves we carry.

Gray had a good thread and posting on this. If you have reasonable belief your partner is in danger even though she isn't in your immediate vicinity, e.g. someone you know to be armed yelling he is going to go to your house at such and such address and kill/harm your wife/kids and you know this is an immeiate viable threat.....the law gives you some lattitude in preventing this.
 

Jeff Hayes

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The problem with off duty, plain clothes officers is how do you know they are in fact what the say they are in the middle of SHTF. Any one can yell Police, its actually happened to me. So unless its blatently clear they are an officer they get the same response from me as everyone else is getting until I know for sure who they are. In this case I have to wonder if the perp believed the officer or just did not care that he was an officer.

I stopped a plain clothes cop that was sneaking through my friends RV storage parking lot and ruined his prostitution sting, he did not get to hear any evidence of a crime. I was threatened with arrest for interfering with an officer asked for a superior the superior got there and diffused the situation and I did not get arrested.

Putting all this asside the perp got what he deserved and it should not matter if home owner was a LEO or not. I was not there but I think I may have shot when the pipe was drawn back to strike, no way I am playing you hit me 1st and them I will defend myself.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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+1

So taking us back to the 80s, can I yell "Stop, or my wife will shoot?" :)

"I know what you're thinking. "Did (s)he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
 

jddssc121

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You raise a good question. I wonder if the officer yelling "police" if he is not on duty is as legal as a civilian yelling "police."

In WA a cop is a cop is a cop. There's no "off the clock" for fully commissioned police officers in regards to their status as a LEO. (different rules apply to reserve officers)
 

BigDave

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This just shows the inherent danger when confronting someone not invited and in the middle of the night outside your home, even to a highly trained officer of the law that also is an instructor at WSP Academy and I am sure he is rethinking his strategy today.

Up until he left the security of his house there was no clear and present danger until he approached the perpetrator with out keeping adequate distance for a response.

Yet we have those who feel their ninja experience one would have came out better by sneaking around their property (unseen :eek:) and those who are still unsure of when it would be legal to use deadly force or not. At least the second part of this people know their limitations and are willing to seek more information.

Even our experienced Officers on Duty will wait until additional support arrives before engaging in activities as this and yet we have those here recommending to act upon their own, not so bright.
 

jddssc121

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so pastor defends property and gets shot...
Cop defends property and gets a pat on the back....
 

Jeff Hayes

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so pastor defends property and gets shot...
Cop defends property and gets a pat on the back....

There is more to it than that but essentially yes. My comments were more along the lines of the perception of a LEO defending his property vs regular Joe blow defending his property. There should be no difference yet the difference is hugh, this is the double standard that most LEOs cant figure out that causes a lot of the disconnect with average Joe Blow. I could go on and on with examples. I have always thought that a LEO that will not arrest/ticket an other LEO on the spot no questions asked when he sees them commit a crime that he would immediatly arrest Joe citizen for should not be a LEO, because he is a criminal himself, but then thats just me.
 
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