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Gene German Asks For Money to Help Brad Krause...
- Thread starter Spartacus
- Start date
J.Gleason
Banned
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
A couple of thoughts:
Before the AG memo, before WCI existed many of us were trying to "move the ball forward" with an open-carry picnic. The idea was posted and dozens of forum members expressed interest, so we pulled the trigger, reserved park space and began to plan the picnic. Brad Krause (who posted under the name Pointman at the time) PM'd people who expressed interest in attending in previous threads and convinced them it was a bad idea. I know this because Brad PM'd ME and tried to convince me not to have an OC picnic saying it would hurt the cause. I believe Brad really thought it was a bad idea... But I don't think it was. In retrospect, I think I was right. All the OC picnics and press have really moved the ball forward as far as public awareness. His efforts, I believe sabotaged what we were trying to do (again, this was 6 months before WCI was even an idea)
The day of the AG memo Ch. 12 did an interview with me. They also wanted to do a "hidden camera" story on me OC'ing in a store to see if you REALLY could OC in public. Brad called me a day before I was going to do the story (3 days after the memo) and said "lay low, no media, no OC'ing" I was like WHAT???? Lay low? The fire is hot. STOKE IT. Again, I won't pretend to know what Brad's motivations were, but I will say that I do not understand them. They seem way off base and detrimental to the cause (my opinion) I think he thinks his 'way' was the best way. We just disagree.
So to respond to your question Paul, I don't think its vitriol extended towards Brad and Gene. I think honestly, its just confusion and mistrust/unsure of their motives.
Brad chose not to file a lawsuit after his acquittal on municipal charges. I know he was offered GOOD legal help. Turned it down. Now over a year and a half later he files a lawsuit pro se. Why he has chosen to file... I don't know. I'm just speculating.
I will say this:
Its VERY important that Brad wins this case. When Jesus's Federal Case was lost the Madison Police Department used it in its training memo's suggesting that "in one courts view" OC is disorderly. THANK-GOODNESS that case has now been appealed. It was a bad ruling AND it was only in Federal DISTRICT court (non binding precedent) but it is NOT good for the movement to LOSE even district cases.
Its VERY important for Brad to win this case. Thats why I STRONGLY urge him to get legal counsel. As for his request of money. Filing a federal case is ONLY expensive if you have to pay an attorney. Brad (according to Gene) has no attorney. I believe its a $350 filing fee to file the federal case (if my memory serves correct from the last filing WCI did). If you are Pro Se you have no attorney fee's. Where is all the money going?
If people want to give money to Brad I suggest they make it contingent upon his obtaining qualified legal counsel first. A win is good, a loss is BAD. Federal District court (in Milwaukee) is a crap shoot. We all know we have at least one Judge Lynn Adelman who is ALL over the map and can't be counted on for a good ruling.
Hopefully the appeal which has just been filed in the Gonzalez case will set a binding precedent which will apply to Brad's case. Brad's treatment by West Allis WAS a violation of his rights. NO doubt about it. They violated Brad's rights big time, and even after his being found not guilty, they continued to violate Brad's rights.
I hope Brad wins big-time. A big-time win is good for the movement no matter what Brad's motivation was to file the suit.
I don't know what Brad needs the money for, since he doesn't have an attorney.
Hopefully the original Gonzalez lawsuit provided a good template for Brad for filing the suit he has already filed and the appeal (and hopeful positive outcome of the appeal) of the Gonzalez suit will establish a binding precedent that will apply to Brad's case as well.
So I'm rootin for ya Brad. Just not interested in sending you money for personal expenses. I gave you $500 standing outside the West Allis courtroom AFTER you were found not guilty under the assumption that you were going to file a civil case. Glad to see you finally filed one. Its 1.5 years late IMO but better late than never. I hope you get qualified legal counsel. If you want WCI's help, you know how to find us.
Before the AG memo, before WCI existed many of us were trying to "move the ball forward" with an open-carry picnic. The idea was posted and dozens of forum members expressed interest, so we pulled the trigger, reserved park space and began to plan the picnic. Brad Krause (who posted under the name Pointman at the time) PM'd people who expressed interest in attending in previous threads and convinced them it was a bad idea. I know this because Brad PM'd ME and tried to convince me not to have an OC picnic saying it would hurt the cause. I believe Brad really thought it was a bad idea... But I don't think it was. In retrospect, I think I was right. All the OC picnics and press have really moved the ball forward as far as public awareness. His efforts, I believe sabotaged what we were trying to do (again, this was 6 months before WCI was even an idea)
The day of the AG memo Ch. 12 did an interview with me. They also wanted to do a "hidden camera" story on me OC'ing in a store to see if you REALLY could OC in public. Brad called me a day before I was going to do the story (3 days after the memo) and said "lay low, no media, no OC'ing" I was like WHAT???? Lay low? The fire is hot. STOKE IT. Again, I won't pretend to know what Brad's motivations were, but I will say that I do not understand them. They seem way off base and detrimental to the cause (my opinion) I think he thinks his 'way' was the best way. We just disagree.
So to respond to your question Paul, I don't think its vitriol extended towards Brad and Gene. I think honestly, its just confusion and mistrust/unsure of their motives.
Brad chose not to file a lawsuit after his acquittal on municipal charges. I know he was offered GOOD legal help. Turned it down. Now over a year and a half later he files a lawsuit pro se. Why he has chosen to file... I don't know. I'm just speculating.
I will say this:
Its VERY important that Brad wins this case. When Jesus's Federal Case was lost the Madison Police Department used it in its training memo's suggesting that "in one courts view" OC is disorderly. THANK-GOODNESS that case has now been appealed. It was a bad ruling AND it was only in Federal DISTRICT court (non binding precedent) but it is NOT good for the movement to LOSE even district cases.
Its VERY important for Brad to win this case. Thats why I STRONGLY urge him to get legal counsel. As for his request of money. Filing a federal case is ONLY expensive if you have to pay an attorney. Brad (according to Gene) has no attorney. I believe its a $350 filing fee to file the federal case (if my memory serves correct from the last filing WCI did). If you are Pro Se you have no attorney fee's. Where is all the money going?
If people want to give money to Brad I suggest they make it contingent upon his obtaining qualified legal counsel first. A win is good, a loss is BAD. Federal District court (in Milwaukee) is a crap shoot. We all know we have at least one Judge Lynn Adelman who is ALL over the map and can't be counted on for a good ruling.
Hopefully the appeal which has just been filed in the Gonzalez case will set a binding precedent which will apply to Brad's case. Brad's treatment by West Allis WAS a violation of his rights. NO doubt about it. They violated Brad's rights big time, and even after his being found not guilty, they continued to violate Brad's rights.
I hope Brad wins big-time. A big-time win is good for the movement no matter what Brad's motivation was to file the suit.
I don't know what Brad needs the money for, since he doesn't have an attorney.
Hopefully the original Gonzalez lawsuit provided a good template for Brad for filing the suit he has already filed and the appeal (and hopeful positive outcome of the appeal) of the Gonzalez suit will establish a binding precedent that will apply to Brad's case as well.
So I'm rootin for ya Brad. Just not interested in sending you money for personal expenses. I gave you $500 standing outside the West Allis courtroom AFTER you were found not guilty under the assumption that you were going to file a civil case. Glad to see you finally filed one. Its 1.5 years late IMO but better late than never. I hope you get qualified legal counsel. If you want WCI's help, you know how to find us.
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paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
Nik,
Thank you for the well thought out, reasonable response.
I guess that is a good question, if he is filling pro se, why does he need donations?
Anyhow, let me echo Nik's statement. You MUST win. Any loss will be amplified. If you need legal help, ask for it. I want you to win, I want the right to carry as I see fit with no need for training or permit and wherever I want.
I am willing to accept less than that. That's just what I want.
Thank you for the well thought out, reasonable response.
I guess that is a good question, if he is filling pro se, why does he need donations?
Anyhow, let me echo Nik's statement. You MUST win. Any loss will be amplified. If you need legal help, ask for it. I want you to win, I want the right to carry as I see fit with no need for training or permit and wherever I want.
I am willing to accept less than that. That's just what I want.
Birdhunter
Regular Member
Agree 100% with Nik & Paul. Regardless of past history, he must win this lawsuit!
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Correct, WCI didn't even exist at the time of Brad's situation. WCI was incorporated almost 1 year after Brad's acquittal.
As for Gene's other comments. I think they are disappointing and dismissive of other peoples efforts:
Gene stated:
Dozens and dozens of people all over the state have been VERY active in their local communities to get the preempted gun bans off the books. Around Milwaukee dozens of people, many WCI members showed up at Greenfield, in South Milwaukee, and other places. None of those people asked for money, they just showed up. Don't diminish their efforts Gene. Brad showed up a couple places too, but he wasn't alone. Give credit where credit is due.
Gene German makes me nervous. I question his motives. Look what he wrote about Wisconsin's gun-free-school-zones:
http://www.examiner.com/wisconsin-gun-rights-in-milwaukee/gun-free-school-zone-problem-persists
I wonder if Gene tells students in his class that EVEN with the non-resident MN permit that his class affords them they STILL are at risk for arrest for violating the Federal GFSZ act by carrying with their NON-RESIDENT permit in states with reciprocity with MN.
Also, Gene seems to think (from his quote in the article) that the answer to everything is a permit to carry. Not surprising since he's a firearms instructor. But he sure doesn't sound like an advocate for constitution carry to me. Don't take my word for it, read his quote.
Also, as Gene casts aside the Federal GFSZ lawsuit against Wisconsin's GFSZ as meaningless, he IGNORES the precedent that a victory against Wisconsin's GFSZ law would set. Since the Federal GFSZ law is ALMOST identical language to Wisconsin's GFSZ law, if Wisconsin's goes down in flames declared unconstitutional, that would provide the basis for the Federal GFSZ to be constitutionally challenged as well.
Gene seems to ignore the big picture. (me-thinks he's just very focused on making sure people are required by the government to attend his classes in order to exercise a human-right to carry)
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Hopefully with the binding precedent this appeal will set:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?57271-West-Milwaukee-Chilton-Answer-OC-Lawsuit
It won't matter if Brad fumbles his lawsuit by filing Pro Se without legal counsel in district court (non-binding precedent) if the appeal of the Gonzalez case is won in Federal appellate court (binding precedent).
Again, Brad's right were violated. He deserves damages from West Allis. (though not the $50,000,000 he amateurishly requested in his suit) but the appeal of Gonzalez suit which is now in Federal Appellate court will set a binding precedent and will provide cover for OC'ers
If Brad fails to get the damages he deserves because he doesn't have an attorney, that will be his loss.
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Tree_Planter
New member
Could you be more specific? What legal help are you talking about?
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
No
You know.
Since you are here. And I ask this question genuinely. The money Gene solicited on your behalf, what is that going towards?
Have you considered legal counsel? Are you prepared for an appeal if necessary?
Spartacus
Banned
Tree_Planter
New member
No, I don't know. Are you speaking personally, or for WCI?
You know as well as I do there are large costs involved beyond the filing fee, which is only the start of the process.
So everyone is aware, I did have an attorney, and all I can say is the system isn't fair to the good attorneys. I think Gene's e-mail summed up what happened. Most people would have let the case die at that point, so I don't understand why people are upset I didn't.
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Yes. Attorney fee's. If you don't have an attorney, I don't know what other costs there would be.
Good luck with your case Brad.
Your right were violated big time. You are due damages.
Tree_Planter
New member
Wait, I'm still not sure what you mean about the help. Are you saying you offered legal assistance, or WCI did?
I certainly could use your expertise. How did you get the depositions done for free in your past cases? I sure would like to avoid that cost...
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Brad we've played this game before. You never answer questions, you redirect and keep asking. I would go pull quotes from your alter ego Pointman, where these issues were raised and discussed in the past but you've conveniently gone back and edited/deleted every post Pointman ever made.
Again. Wish you luck in your case. You know I supported you. I've given you a great deal of money. I use to believe in you. I no longer trust you or your motives and especially not Gene and his motives.
Despite that, I believe its important that you win your case and I do hope you get the damages you deserve. (not the 50 million you ask for in the suit though) I hope you seek out legal counsel. I genuinely wish you luck with your suit.
Again. Wish you luck in your case. You know I supported you. I've given you a great deal of money. I use to believe in you. I no longer trust you or your motives and especially not Gene and his motives.
Despite that, I believe its important that you win your case and I do hope you get the damages you deserve. (not the 50 million you ask for in the suit though) I hope you seek out legal counsel. I genuinely wish you luck with your suit.
Veto The Tax
Regular Member
No one else has said it, so I will Mr. Krause:
When I ran into some people who took your training, they made you sound JUST LIKE FLYNN! Don't do it, you'll get in trouble.
I too want you to win, but as long as you have the NRA don't open carry attitude, I won't support you either.
So, here is a plan: Hold and OC picnic fund raiser. All profits go to pay your legal team. I bet you could get 200 guys to show up, get $20 from each of them, and you would have $4,000 in your war chest. That should be about right for the initial suit.
Continue to speak against the free exercise of ones rights, against OC, then you are on your own.
When I ran into some people who took your training, they made you sound JUST LIKE FLYNN! Don't do it, you'll get in trouble.
I too want you to win, but as long as you have the NRA don't open carry attitude, I won't support you either.
So, here is a plan: Hold and OC picnic fund raiser. All profits go to pay your legal team. I bet you could get 200 guys to show up, get $20 from each of them, and you would have $4,000 in your war chest. That should be about right for the initial suit.
Continue to speak against the free exercise of ones rights, against OC, then you are on your own.
J.Gleason
Banned
+10000
Tree_Planter
New member
Nik,
...or at least I assume this is Nik because your profile doesn't state anything but your title, and you're not posting under your old account name, which as you stated is a horrible thing....
We have played your game before. You insult me publicly, I give you my contact information and offer to meet with you, and you won't even return a call. You want to post on the forum, but only if it makes you look good.
Both you and I know the costs involved in a federal case. If you're going to tell everyone the only cost involved is the filing fee, you should at least tell me how you got the rest for free. I answered your question, you answer mine.
Your previous comments and leading questions are an odd way to show support for someone, but if you want me to do well why did WCI not even give me a call? You said you have good attorneys, you have a lot of resources behind you, you said, "It’s VERY important that Brad wins this case." Do you need my contact information again?
You did help out (personally) "AFTER [I was] found not guilty" in West Allis. You did not mention there were strings attached, like a timeline, or I had to not only thank you then, but also by phone, letter, publicly, and on a continual basis, because none of that was enough. In that respect, you do stand out from everyone else, congratulations. Since this bothers you so much that you continually bring it up, I'll make you a special offer: Help ensure this "VERY important" case is won with the "damages you deserve" and your contribution will be returned.
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Brad, We've talked on the phone many times in the past.
I know you have my phone number because you've called it. I've never failed to return a phone call. As far as meeting. My time is valuable as I'm sure yours is, but if it necessary I make time.
Again, you have my phone number. If you need help call. You are an involved guy. I know you know about WCI, you know who I am, and you know who the leadership of WCI is. You have known this the whole time. WCI was incorporated almost a year after your acquittal.
Yes, I assumed you were not filing a case. As pointman after your acquittal you even posed the questions on this forum "what damages would there be" and many people offered what damages there were. I assumed that, in combination with your turning down offers for legal help previously, you weren't interested in holding West Allis accountable. As such, WCI did not reach out to you, (again because we didn't exist until almost a year after your acquittal) but you know your intentions better than anyone. You keep abreast of happenings. You could reach out to us like others who we've helped have.
If you REALLY wanted help, (instead of trying to play a PR game in the forum) you would call instead of making posts like this.
You can still reach out to us. This will be my last comment publicly. You have my phone number. If you need help, call. No need to continue to posture on an internet forum. If you want help. CALL. You've played me enough before, I'm not chasing you down but if you need help, call or email. nik@wisconsincarry.org and we can discuss it. I'm just being honest, I think if you wanted our help you would have already called. Instead you are just playing the "victim" card for money donations. "oh no one will help poor Brad" That couldn't be farther from the truth. Many will and have helped you. I gave you $500.
One last clarification, you are correct, there is a cost for depositions. (in addition to the $350 filing fee) I don't know how much the court reporter costs per day etc because in the GFSZ case we have not yet taken depositions. I don't think its a lot of money but I was in error to say the filing fee was the ONLY cost (if you don't have an attorney)
I know you have my phone number because you've called it. I've never failed to return a phone call. As far as meeting. My time is valuable as I'm sure yours is, but if it necessary I make time.
Again, you have my phone number. If you need help call. You are an involved guy. I know you know about WCI, you know who I am, and you know who the leadership of WCI is. You have known this the whole time. WCI was incorporated almost a year after your acquittal.
Yes, I assumed you were not filing a case. As pointman after your acquittal you even posed the questions on this forum "what damages would there be" and many people offered what damages there were. I assumed that, in combination with your turning down offers for legal help previously, you weren't interested in holding West Allis accountable. As such, WCI did not reach out to you, (again because we didn't exist until almost a year after your acquittal) but you know your intentions better than anyone. You keep abreast of happenings. You could reach out to us like others who we've helped have.
If you REALLY wanted help, (instead of trying to play a PR game in the forum) you would call instead of making posts like this.
You can still reach out to us. This will be my last comment publicly. You have my phone number. If you need help, call. No need to continue to posture on an internet forum. If you want help. CALL. You've played me enough before, I'm not chasing you down but if you need help, call or email. nik@wisconsincarry.org and we can discuss it. I'm just being honest, I think if you wanted our help you would have already called. Instead you are just playing the "victim" card for money donations. "oh no one will help poor Brad" That couldn't be farther from the truth. Many will and have helped you. I gave you $500.
One last clarification, you are correct, there is a cost for depositions. (in addition to the $350 filing fee) I don't know how much the court reporter costs per day etc because in the GFSZ case we have not yet taken depositions. I don't think its a lot of money but I was in error to say the filing fee was the ONLY cost (if you don't have an attorney)
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M
McX
Guest
i can settle this arguement, with comic relief: send all your money to me! just trying to help is all..............
J.Gleason
Banned
What happened to all the money he collected off of his "Training" course?