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Thread: Rights of citizens when Police order to leave Public place

  1. #1
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Rights of citizens when Police order to leave Public place

    So we have all seen the videos where an OC'er is walking around a public place or an event and is approached by Police. There is usually a discussion then Police get irritated that the OC'er is standing their ground for rights etc. So Police tell them to leave and not come back. Many vids end in the OC'er getting arrested for obstruction, resisting an order etc... So usually the people are asked to leave not really because they are carrying, but more because they are being resistant and not caving to unlawful demands of Police. So what authority do Police have to make us leave a public area? I have heard "for the safety of others etc" But that's not the real reason. If an officer knows he can't legally disarm me, but tries to make me leave. What rights do I as a citizen have?
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Depends on the situation, and how much you want to stand up for your rights.

    First off the Supreme Court has ruled anti-loitering laws are illegal, so they can't use that against you as long as you are not engaged in any illegal activity and are not on private property.

    In my state we are not a stop and ID so any interreaction with demands would need RAS, the LEO being video taped is not RAS. Of course they can like any one approach you and ask you anything they want, that is consensual. You can politely (best to be polite in my opinion) refuse to comply with any demands, if they can't get give RAS. Including being asked to leave if it is not private property.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    If you are sure you have a legal right to be there, you can choose to be arrested and contest that in criminal court. If you win there you can then sue the officer(s) involved for violating your civil rights and ask for compensation. If you are sucessful there you will also have established that the grounds and circumstances (both together) are now "known" to "a reasonable officer in similar circumstances" to be unconstitutional arrest and other violation(s) of your rights, so probably have provided protection for those who come after you.

    But you have to be willing to have your rights violated and suffer the collateral effects of having that happen - arrest, held in jail, legal defense and civil suit costs, etc.

    stay safe.

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    Remember a few things with this issue folks.

    1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
    2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.
    3. Standing your ground without any physical resistance is called passive resistance.
    4. You can be hit with the catch-all known as "disorderly conduct", a crime that can be compounded by the presence of a firearm in court.
    5. The courts will side with a LEO 99.99% of the time unless you have definitive proof to the contrary.

    This is why when a LEO tells you to leave you shut your mouth and promptly comply, then follow up with a complaint to that LEOs supervisor or department head.
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-14-2010 at 10:59 PM.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    But if an officer gives an order doesn't he need a lawful reason and authority to do so. Don't seem right that they can walk up to anybody and just tell them to leave a public place. Then give you a citation for trespassing and refusing an order. But I haven't been able to find any real legal clarification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    SNIP 1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
    Cite, please.

    Forum Rule #5:

    5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

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    I am 'the public.' How can I be accused of trespass on property I am a part owner of? That'd be the same thing as trespass in my own home! Plus, an unlawful 'order' would carry no force of law; it'd be like being 'ordered' to drive 80mph in a 30 zone.

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cite, please.

    Forum Rule #5:

    5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    You beat me too it......The supreme court even ruled that loitering laws are unconstitutional in Morales vs. Chicago, here's an interesting statement from that case that seems to be contradictory to Dipsticks comment.

    “It criminalized status, not conduct,” Stevens wrote. “It allows and even encourages arbitrary police enforcement.” It is “impermissibly vague on its face and an arbitrary restriction on personal liberties.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark-in-texas View Post
    I am 'the public.' How can I be accused of trespass on property I am a part owner of? That'd be the same thing as trespass in my own home! Plus, an unlawful 'order' would carry no force of law; it'd be like being 'ordered' to drive 80mph in a 30 zone.
    If you have lawfully been ordered to leave a place, even if it is public property, you must leave, or you are breaking the law. You are right to the extent that technically you can't be charged if the LEO did not have a lawful reason for asking you to leave.

    However, even if the order was unlawful and you refuse to leave, you will face legal hassles defense costs, while the officer risks little. Choose your battles carefully and carry a recorder.

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If you have lawfully been ordered to leave a place, even if it is public property, you must leave, or you are breaking the law. You are right to the extent that technically you can't be charged if the LEO did not have a lawful reason for asking you to leave.

    However, even if the order was unlawful and you refuse to leave, you will face legal hassles defense costs, while the officer risks little. Choose your battles carefully and carry a recorder.
    Cite please!!!!! We have to define lawful, otherwise folks interpret any order by the LEO as lawful.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 09-16-2010 at 12:09 AM.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    ummm, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Remember a few things with this issue folks.

    1. [highlight LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
    2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.[/highlight]
    3. Standing your ground without any physical resistance is called passive resistance.
    4. You can be hit with the catch-all known as "disorderly conduct", a crime that can be compounded by the presence of a firearm in court.
    5. The courts will side with a LEO 99.99% of the time unless you have definitive proof to the contrary.

    This is why when a LEO tells you to leave you shut your mouth and promptly comply, then follow up with a complaint to that LEOs supervisor or department head.
    cite please?

    also, if it is trespassing, why are you being charged with DO?
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cite please!!!!!
    No. That I said "lawful" means that the statement is only true if the power is in the law. If you wish to make the absolute assertion that there is no law that ever authorizes a LEO to lawfully ask a person to leave public property, then support that assertion.

    I will not provide a cite for my conditional statement.

    Moving on.
    Last edited by eye95; 09-16-2010 at 09:05 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    why do some feel that LEO have unconditional power??

    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Remember a few things with this issue folks.

    1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
    2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.
    3. Standing your ground without any physical resistance is called passive resistance.
    4. You can be hit with the catch-all known as "disorderly conduct", a crime that can be compounded by the presence of a firearm in court.
    5. The courts will side with a LEO 99.99% of the time unless you have definitive proof to the contrary.

    This is why when a LEO tells you to leave you shut your mouth and promptly comply, then follow up with a complaint to that LEOs supervisor or department head.
    just do it,, its the law!!! no its isnt!
    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    But if an officer gives an order doesn't he need a lawful reason and authority to do so. Don't seem right that they can walk up to anybody and just tell them to leave a public place. Then give you a citation for trespassing and refusing an order. But I haven't been able to find any real legal clarification.
    color of law..
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cite, please.

    Forum Rule #5:

    5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Quote Originally Posted by mark-in-texas View Post
    I am 'the public.' How can I be accused of trespass on property I am a part owner of? That'd be the same thing as trespass in my own home! Plus, an unlawful 'order' would carry no force of law; it'd be like being 'ordered' to drive 80mph in a 30 zone.
    it is an unlawful order, you should refuse!
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    You beat me too it......The supreme court even ruled that loitering laws are unconstitutional in Morales vs. Chicago, here's an interesting statement from that case that seems to be contradictory to Dipsticks comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If you have lawfully been ordered to leave a place, even if it is public property, you must leave, or you are breaking the law. You are right to the extent that technically you can't be charged if the LEO did not have a lawful reason for asking you to leave.

    However, even if the order was unlawful and you refuse to leave, you will face legal hassles defense costs, while the officer risks little. Choose your battles carefully and carry a recorder.
    battles should be carefully chosen, unlawful orders from LEO are good battles to be fought!
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cite please!!!!! We have to define lawful, otherwise folks interpret any order by the LEO as lawful.
    yes, cite please.
    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    cite please?
    also, if it is trespassing, why are you being charged with DO?
    again cite please.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    No. That I said "lawful" means that the statement is only true if the power is in the law. If you wish to make the absolute assertion that there is no law that ever authorizes a LEO to lawfully ask a person to leave public property, then support that assertion.

    I will not provide a cite for my conditional statement.

    Moving on.
    so sorry to see you go!
    bye!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    No. That I said "lawful" means that the statement is only true if the power is in the law. If you wish to make the absolute assertion that there is no law that ever authorizes a LEO to lawfully ask a person to leave public property, then support that assertion.

    I will not provide a cite for my conditional statement.

    Moving on.

    So I will ask for the cite again, because I agree with you that there are a few instances where they can "lawfully" ask you to leave. Conditional or not I think a cite would help your argument rather than just making a statement. Because the open ended way you left it many would assume that there are very broad powers of the LEO in this case and I would disagree, as I pointed out in Morales vs. Chicago.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 09-16-2010 at 09:43 PM.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    This confusion is kind of why I thought I would pose the question. Maybe this is one of those grey areas of the legal system. An officer usually knows he can't ask you to leave because of Open Carrying. So he just says for the safety of the public or something, you have to leave and if you come back I will arrest you. Is there any real legal authority for an officer in a situation like that. They just kind of make stuff up, then tell you that you have to leave. I would guess that they need Legal Authority for an order like that. But what determines that authority. An officer can't just order you to walk like a duck and pick up that soda can. Then cite you for disobeying an order if you don't comply.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    this..unlawful orders..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqNXbqwnvuY

    Marysville Stop

    listen to this dumb cop youtube, the cops logic/reasoning skills are off the chart!!
    or read the entire thread
    from michigan.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Remember a few things with this issue folks.

    1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
    you have any citations for this?
    2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.
    or this one?

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I would comply. If you feel your rights have been violated in any manner, you're free to research into how and why, and file a complaint.

    You're also free to say something like, "Good afternoon, officer. I'm engaged in the lawful carry of a firearm, and SCOTUS has ruled this action to be insufficient to meet RAS requirements. Is there something else you would like to discuss with me today? If not, I would like to go about my business without further interaction with either you or anyone else from your department."

    Of course the latter is a bit uppity. I suppose the litmus test here is, "Would you say something equally standoffish to your average citizen?"
    Last edited by since9; 09-17-2010 at 07:58 PM.
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    Regular Member confedneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post

    Of course the latter is a bit uppity. I suppose the litmus test here is, "Would you say something equally standoffish to your average citizen?"

    No, it'd be more along the lines of, "what i'm doing is legal, and if you don't step the hell back, i will call the police and advise them you are harassing me"

    then walk away

    FWIW,
    If a cop tells you to leave a public place, he will make up whatever reason, right there on the spot. You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

  20. #20
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    I would not recommend talking that way to another citizen questioning your being armed. You would be escalating the situation. And, if the other citizen remains calm, while you, the armed citizen are saying things like, "Step the hell back!" any officer arriving on the scene is immediately going to perceive you as the problem.

    I suggest responding politely, civilly, and rationally at all times. Of course, the other citizen could become confrontational. Stay polite, but firm. Be willing to be the person to walk away.

    We recently had a thread from one of our posters in Washington who had such an incident. As hard as the unarmed citizen tried to create a confrontation, the armed citizen maintained his cool. Net upshot? The cops didn't even want to talk to the armed citizen after he politely accompanied store personnel and the unarmed citizen bolted.

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    Regular Member confedneck's Avatar
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    And I politely would like to inform you that your suggestion means squat to me.

    Telling someone to get the hell away from you is HARDLY confrontational. And as for the guy in the target store, he should have knocked that moron on his ass after he grabbed for his gun.

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    Although it is late in my response, as it seems the conversation has evolved from what the original Thread what Posted for, I would like to comment on potential Criminal Tresspassing Issues concerning Public Property.

    First, allow me to start with the comment that Private Property is the basis and founding of our Country, and Private Property Owners, can, and ought to be able to, Regulate their Private Property in any way that they deem fit. The Fifth Amendment provides that: '... Private Property shall NOT be taken for Public use, without JUST Compensation.'

    However, in the realm of Public Property, that which is owned by everyone in consideration of Taxes, should belong to THE PEOPLE.
    Last edited by aadvark; 09-18-2010 at 12:54 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    It appears that we have a couple of statists among us. Police statists to be more exact.

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    [Sallutations Omitted]

    [Omit]

    P.S.: Although, and while it is true that..., I believe that there needs to be some Infinitesimal Government, to Micro-Manage People on some Level..., Statist Governments almost always decline to Socialist States. Humans are naturally Social Creatures, and as such we associate ourselves into Groups, that when taken together, conglomerate into Civilizations. However too much Governmental Intervention on every faucet of Individual and Free Market affairs only impedes on the Individuals Ability to Live His Life on His own Liberty and Pursuit of His own Happiness.

    P.S.2: Eye95... Please help me here! Maybe you could elaborate on my initial first P.S. Comment above?
    Last edited by aadvark; 09-18-2010 at 03:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by confedneck View Post
    And I politely would like to inform you that your suggestion means squat to me.

    Telling someone to get the hell away from you is HARDLY confrontational. And as for the guy in the target store, he should have knocked that moron on his ass after he grabbed for his gun.
    And I will politely inform you that I did not expect you to take my suggestion. As I have said numerous times before, I rarely expect to change the mind of the person to whom I post. The goal is to reach others who read both points of view.

    Rationality is how we change hearts and minds. Rashness and smart-aleckiness are how we get rah-rahs from folks who already agree with us.

    Moving on.

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