Rights of citizens when Police order to leave Public place

Motofixxer · Sep 14, 2010

So we have all seen the videos where an OC'er is walking around a public place or an event and is approached by Police. There is usually a discussion then Police get irritated that the OC'er is standing their ground for rights etc. So Police tell them to leave and not come back. Many vids end in the OC'er getting arrested for obstruction, resisting an order etc... So usually the people are asked to leave not really because they are carrying, but more because they are being resistant and not caving to unlawful demands of Police. So what authority do Police have to make us leave a public area? I have heard "for the safety of others etc" But that's not the real reason. If an officer knows he can't legally disarm me, but tries to make me leave. What rights do I as a citizen have?

sudden valley gunner · Sep 14, 2010

Depends on the situation, and how much you want to stand up for your rights.

First off the Supreme Court has ruled anti-loitering laws are illegal, so they can't use that against you as long as you are not engaged in any illegal activity and are not on private property.

In my state we are not a stop and ID so any interreaction with demands would need RAS, the LEO being video taped is not RAS. Of course they can like any one approach you and ask you anything they want, that is consensual. You can politely (best to be polite in my opinion) refuse to comply with any demands, if they can't get give RAS. Including being asked to leave if it is not private property.

skidmark · Sep 14, 2010

If you are sure you have a legal right to be there, you can choose to be arrested and contest that in criminal court. If you win there you can then sue the officer(s) involved for violating your civil rights and ask for compensation. If you are sucessful there you will also have established that the grounds and circumstances (both together) are now "known" to "a reasonable officer in similar circumstances" to be unconstitutional arrest and other violation(s) of your rights, so probably have provided protection for those who come after you.

But you have to be willing to have your rights violated and suffer the collateral effects of having that happen - arrest, held in jail, legal defense and civil suit costs, etc.

stay safe.

heresyourdipstickjimmy · Sep 14, 2010

Remember a few things with this issue folks.

1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.
3. Standing your ground without any physical resistance is called passive resistance.
4. You can be hit with the catch-all known as "disorderly conduct", a crime that can be compounded by the presence of a firearm in court.
5. The courts will side with a LEO 99.99% of the time unless you have definitive proof to the contrary.

This is why when a LEO tells you to leave you shut your mouth and promptly comply, then follow up with a complaint to that LEOs supervisor or department head.

Motofixxer · Sep 14, 2010

But if an officer gives an order doesn't he need a lawful reason and authority to do so. Don't seem right that they can walk up to anybody and just tell them to leave a public place. Then give you a citation for trespassing and refusing an order. But I haven't been able to find any real legal clarification.

Citizen · Sep 14, 2010

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:
SNIP 1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.

Cite, please.

Forum Rule #5:

5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

mark-in-texas · Sep 15, 2010

I am 'the public.' How can I be accused of trespass on property I am a part owner of? That'd be the same thing as trespass in my own home! Plus, an unlawful 'order' would carry no force of law; it'd be like being 'ordered' to drive 80mph in a 30 zone.

sudden valley gunner · Sep 15, 2010

Citizen said:
Cite, please.

Forum Rule #5:

5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

You beat me too it......The supreme court even ruled that loitering laws are unconstitutional in Morales vs. Chicago, here's an interesting statement from that case that seems to be contradictory to Dipsticks comment.

“It criminalized status, not conduct,” Stevens wrote. “It allows and even encourages arbitrary police enforcement.” It is “impermissibly vague on its face and an arbitrary restriction on personal liberties.”

eye95 · Sep 15, 2010

mark-in-texas said:
I am 'the public.' How can I be accused of trespass on property I am a part owner of? That'd be the same thing as trespass in my own home! Plus, an unlawful 'order' would carry no force of law; it'd be like being 'ordered' to drive 80mph in a 30 zone.

If you have lawfully been ordered to leave a place, even if it is public property, you must leave, or you are breaking the law. You are right to the extent that technically you can't be charged if the LEO did not have a lawful reason for asking you to leave.

However, even if the order was unlawful and you refuse to leave, you will face legal hassles defense costs, while the officer risks little. Choose your battles carefully and carry a recorder.

sudden valley gunner · Sep 16, 2010

eye95 said:
If you have lawfully been ordered to leave a place, even if it is public property, you must leave, or you are breaking the law. You are right to the extent that technically you can't be charged if the LEO did not have a lawful reason for asking you to leave.

However, even if the order was unlawful and you refuse to leave, you will face legal hassles defense costs, while the officer risks little. Choose your battles carefully and carry a recorder.

Cite please!!!!! We have to define lawful, otherwise folks interpret any order by the LEO as lawful.

simmonsjoe · Sep 16, 2010

ummm, no?

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:
Remember a few things with this issue folks.

1. [highlight LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.[/highlight]
3. Standing your ground without any physical resistance is called passive resistance.
4. You can be hit with the catch-all known as "disorderly conduct", a crime that can be compounded by the presence of a firearm in court.
5. The courts will side with a LEO 99.99% of the time unless you have definitive proof to the contrary.

This is why when a LEO tells you to leave you shut your mouth and promptly comply, then follow up with a complaint to that LEOs supervisor or department head.

cite please?

also, if it is trespassing, why are you being charged with DO?

eye95 · Sep 16, 2010

sudden valley gunner said:
Cite please!!!!!

No. That I said "lawful" means that the statement is only true if the power is in the law. If you wish to make the absolute assertion that there is no law that ever authorizes a LEO to lawfully ask a person to leave public property, then support that assertion.

I will not provide a cite for my conditional statement.

Moving on.

1245A Defender · Sep 16, 2010

why do some feel that LEO have unconditional power??

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:
Remember a few things with this issue folks.

1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.
2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.
3. Standing your ground without any physical resistance is called passive resistance.
4. You can be hit with the catch-all known as "disorderly conduct", a crime that can be compounded by the presence of a firearm in court.
5. The courts will side with a LEO 99.99% of the time unless you have definitive proof to the contrary.

This is why when a LEO tells you to leave you shut your mouth and promptly comply, then follow up with a complaint to that LEOs supervisor or department head.

just do it,, its the law!!! no its isnt!

Motofixxer said:
But if an officer gives an order doesn't he need a lawful reason and authority to do so. Don't seem right that they can walk up to anybody and just tell them to leave a public place. Then give you a citation for trespassing and refusing an order. But I haven't been able to find any real legal clarification.

color of law..

Citizen said:
Cite, please.

Forum Rule #5:

5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

mark-in-texas said:
I am 'the public.' How can I be accused of trespass on property I am a part owner of? That'd be the same thing as trespass in my own home! Plus, an unlawful 'order' would carry no force of law; it'd be like being 'ordered' to drive 80mph in a 30 zone.

it is an unlawful order, you should refuse!

sudden valley gunner said:
You beat me too it......The supreme court even ruled that loitering laws are unconstitutional in Morales vs. Chicago, here's an interesting statement from that case that seems to be contradictory to Dipsticks comment.

eye95 said:
If you have lawfully been ordered to leave a place, even if it is public property, you must leave, or you are breaking the law. You are right to the extent that technically you can't be charged if the LEO did not have a lawful reason for asking you to leave.

However, even if the order was unlawful and you refuse to leave, you will face legal hassles defense costs, while the officer risks little. Choose your battles carefully and carry a recorder.

battles should be carefully chosen, unlawful orders from LEO are good battles to be fought!

sudden valley gunner said:
Cite please!!!!! We have to define lawful, otherwise folks interpret any order by the LEO as lawful.

yes, cite please.

simmonsjoe said:
cite please?
also, if it is trespassing, why are you being charged with DO?

again cite please.

eye95 said:
No. That I said "lawful" means that the statement is only true if the power is in the law. If you wish to make the absolute assertion that there is no law that ever authorizes a LEO to lawfully ask a person to leave public property, then support that assertion.

I will not provide a cite for my conditional statement.

Moving on.

so sorry to see you go!
bye!!

sudden valley gunner · Sep 16, 2010

eye95 said:
No. That I said "lawful" means that the statement is only true if the power is in the law. If you wish to make the absolute assertion that there is no law that ever authorizes a LEO to lawfully ask a person to leave public property, then support that assertion.

I will not provide a cite for my conditional statement.

Moving on.

So I will ask for the cite again, because I agree with you that there are a few instances where they can "lawfully" ask you to leave. Conditional or not I think a cite would help your argument rather than just making a statement. Because the open ended way you left it many would assume that there are very broad powers of the LEO in this case and I would disagree, as I pointed out in Morales vs. Chicago.

Motofixxer · Sep 17, 2010

This confusion is kind of why I thought I would pose the question. Maybe this is one of those grey areas of the legal system. An officer usually knows he can't ask you to leave because of Open Carrying. So he just says for the safety of the public or something, you have to leave and if you come back I will arrest you. Is there any real legal authority for an officer in a situation like that. They just kind of make stuff up, then tell you that you have to leave. I would guess that they need Legal Authority for an order like that. But what determines that authority. An officer can't just order you to walk like a duck and pick up that soda can. Then cite you for disobeying an order if you don't comply.

1245A Defender · Sep 17, 2010

this..unlawful orders..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqNXbqwnvuY

Marysville Stop

listen to this dumb cop youtube, the cops logic/reasoning skills are off the chart!!
or read the entire thread
from michigan.

DKSuddeth · Sep 17, 2010

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:
Remember a few things with this issue folks.

1. LEO tells you to leave public property, it is a lawful order and you must comply.

you have any citations for this?

2. Failure to comply with that lawful order to leave constitutes trespassing.

or this one?

since9 · Sep 17, 2010

I would comply. If you feel your rights have been violated in any manner, you're free to research into how and why, and file a complaint.

You're also free to say something like, "Good afternoon, officer. I'm engaged in the lawful carry of a firearm, and SCOTUS has ruled this action to be insufficient to meet RAS requirements. Is there something else you would like to discuss with me today? If not, I would like to go about my business without further interaction with either you or anyone else from your department."

Of course the latter is a bit uppity. I suppose the litmus test here is, "Would you say something equally standoffish to your average citizen?"

confedneck · Sep 18, 2010

since9 said:
Of course the latter is a bit uppity. I suppose the litmus test here is, "Would you say something equally standoffish to your average citizen?"

No, it'd be more along the lines of, "what i'm doing is legal, and if you don't step the hell back, i will call the police and advise them you are harassing me"

then walk away

FWIW,
If a cop tells you to leave a public place, he will make up whatever reason, right there on the spot. You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

eye95 · Sep 18, 2010

I would not recommend talking that way to another citizen questioning your being armed. You would be escalating the situation. And, if the other citizen remains calm, while you, the armed citizen are saying things like, "Step the hell back!" any officer arriving on the scene is immediately going to perceive you as the problem.

I suggest responding politely, civilly, and rationally at all times. Of course, the other citizen could become confrontational. Stay polite, but firm. Be willing to be the person to walk away.

We recently had a thread from one of our posters in Washington who had such an incident. As hard as the unarmed citizen tried to create a confrontation, the armed citizen maintained his cool. Net upshot? The cops didn't even want to talk to the armed citizen after he politely accompanied store personnel and the unarmed citizen bolted.

Rights of citizens when Police order to leave Public place

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