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Thread: Emotional Reactions Hurt Local Charities

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Angry Emotional Reactions Hurt Local Charities

    The Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair association has decided to ban all weapons at the fair this year after hearing that open carry may be coming to their fair.

    http://www.southbayopencarry.org/

    Please spread the word to boycott the fair until they change their policies and let them know how they are really just hurting the local charities with this decision!

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    I'd like to know what they consider a weapon.

    Knives of any sort?
    Glass bottles?
    Large belt buckles?
    Cinnabuns?

    For them to lay out such a random statement is the result of kneejerk attitudes of people that only read "guns" when any firearm article is published. Obviously, they cannot point to the clean-up day, nor the "pier party" a couple weeks ago as causing any disruptment or illegal activities.

  3. #3
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army View Post
    I'd like to know what they consider a weapon.

    Knives of any sort?
    Glass bottles?
    Large belt buckles?
    Cinnabuns?

    For them to lay out such a random statement is the result of kneejerk attitudes of people that only read "guns" when any firearm article is published. Obviously, they cannot point to the clean-up day, nor the "pier party" a couple weeks ago as causing any disruptment or illegal activities.
    They may ban people they deem to be too "scary" too. Who knows.

    Please let them know how you feel about this:
    Sandra Seville-Jones <sandra.sevillejones@gmail.com>
    Maggie Movius <MMovius@SpectrumClubs.com>
    Susan Adams <Susan.J.Adams@aero.org>

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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    The Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair association has decided to ban all weapons at the fair this year after hearing that open carry may be coming to their fair.

    http://www.southbayopencarry.org/

    Please spread the word to boycott the fair until they change their policies and let them know how they are really just hurting the local charities with this decision!
    That's wrong. I sent them an email expressing my opinion and CC'd the southbayopencarry email to see what I wrote. Hopefully it was well-written. I will not be attending the fair

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Where are they having this fair? The website says it will be around three different landmarks, but it doesn't say where exactly it is going to be. Is it in a closed off section of streets?

    This reminds me of the park ban that was recently posted about. Cato brought a good point in that thread about the similarities between the city banning weapons in parks and Nordyke. There are certainly similarities, but Nordyke isn't about the bearing of arms for purposes of self-defense, it's about preventing the county from banning a gun show.

    McDonald and Heller both indicated that the right to bear arms for purposes of self-defense is fundamental. I fear that groups will only grow more and more bold in restricting our fundamental rights when they see that there are no significant downsides to restricting access to those who wish to be armed. You've been denied your fundamental right, now what is your backup plan?

  6. #6
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    Where are they having this fair? The website says it will be around three different landmarks, but it doesn't say where exactly it is going to be. Is it in a closed off section of streets?
    ...
    McDonald and Heller both indicated that the right to bear arms for purposes of self-defense is fundamental. I fear that groups will only grow more and more bold in restricting our fundamental rights when they see that there are no significant downsides to restricting access to those who wish to be armed. You've been denied your fundamental right, now what is your backup plan?
    They close off some public streets. The private fair organization rents them from the city for the weekend.
    Here is a map showing where it occurs: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sour...2&ie=UTF8&z=17

    Our backup plan is to make sure as many people let them know that what they are doing is not going to fly and encourage people not to attend. If they see their wallets hurting then they might change their minds. Appealing to their logic and reason has already failed.

  7. #7
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Sent this email to cityservices@mbfair.org:

    I recently heard about the Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair's policy of restricting people from being armed for purposes of self-defense. You may or may not be aware that a recent U.S. Supreme Court opinion declared the right to keep and bear arms for the purposes of self-defense to be a fundamental right. If you were to be sued for denying individuals this right, your policy would be subject to strict scrutiny which would force you to justify what your compelling interest was when you restricted individuals from being armed, you'd have to show that your policy was narrowly tailored to achieve that goal, and you'd have to show that your policy was the least restrictive means in which to accomplish that goal. The court would view your policy in the same manner that it would view a policy restricting Mexican-Americans from attending your fair. In short, you would lose and your policy would be found to be unconstitutional.

    I personally find organizations that stand behind unconstitutional policies to be anathema to liberty and encouraging a free and just society. I hope your board is wise and courageous enough to retract the no weapon policy. Until it does so, I will not be attending your fair based on principle alone.

  8. #8
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    unlawful restriction!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    The Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair association has decided to ban all weapons at the fair this year after hearing that open carry may be coming to their fair.

    http://www.southbayopencarry.org/

    Please spread the word to boycott the fair until they change their policies and let them know how they are really just hurting the local charities with this decision!
    check what michigan open carriers did with an unlawful restriction at a street fair in royal oak!!!
    Open Carry Protest at Arts Beats And Eats?


    you dont need to boycot the fair,,, you need to open carry at the fair!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  9. #9
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    I think another tack should be taken with this.

    The advance notice and working with authorities isnt always going to net you "Fiesta Hermosa" results. And there needs to be a plan in the event that you get a negative reaction.

    Okay- they want to ban open carry at this 'family oriented' community event. They have booths available for 'free speech'... take advantage of that to put your side of the story out-- even if all you can open carry is a banana or a copy of the Constitution. You could turn this around by telling onlookers that the event coordinators monkeying around with the Bill of Rights drives you bananas... that under most every other circumstance, your FIRST amendment right to carry an unloaded firearm as a sign to observers and your self-defense rights in the SECOND are not violated and this organization is unfairly trying to silence and disarm you. I would prominantly display (poster sized) the photographs of the Fiesta Hermosa OC booth - and caption them to illustrate the dichotomy between the two events.

    I would ask questions like; Is this organization screening ALL the attendees to ensure that no one is carrying a weapon? If access is not limited (ie; blocked off so that only attendees are allowed in.) how can you be sure that there are no weapons being carried? Is this organization providing adequate security officers to provide for all the attendees safety? If the organization is not hiring security to provide adequate coverage for the duration of the event, is there any provision to reimburse the city in the case that local police must provide additional personel or overtime over and above normal patrol operations?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    www.shop42a.com

  10. #10
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    you dont need to boycot the fair,,, you need to open carry at the fair!!!
    You might have a point there... I mean if a private organization bans firearms at an event open to the public, the biggest concern I would have is what kind of consequences would there be if I showed up to enjoy myself while UOC? Its not a criminal act, though they would certainly ask you to leave. But this puts police in a terrible position of being an arbiter between the fair organization and enforcing the California penal code and supporting and defending the Constitution (if they believe in upholding their oath of office.)

    And if its more than one, just how are they going to deal with mass defiance?

    I entertain these ideas, without much regard to media reaction or how this might play out in the court of public opinion... Making a stink of it right now is not ideal, even after McDonald v Chicago.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  11. #11
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    I think another tack should be taken with this.

    The advance notice and working with authorities isnt always going to net you "Fiesta Hermosa" results. And there needs to be a plan in the event that you get a negative reaction.

    Okay- they want to ban open carry at this 'family oriented' community event. They have booths available for 'free speech'... take advantage of that to put your side of the story out-- even if all you can open carry is a banana or a copy of the Constitution. You could turn this around by telling onlookers that the event coordinators monkeying around with the Bill of Rights drives you bananas... that under most every other circumstance, your FIRST amendment right to carry an unloaded firearm as a sign to observers and your self-defense rights in the SECOND are not violated and this organization is unfairly trying to silence and disarm you. I would prominantly display (poster sized) the photographs of the Fiesta Hermosa OC booth - and caption them to illustrate the dichotomy between the two events.

    I would ask questions like; Is this organization screening ALL the attendees to ensure that no one is carrying a weapon? If access is not limited (ie; blocked off so that only attendees are allowed in.) how can you be sure that there are no weapons being carried? Is this organization providing adequate security officers to provide for all the attendees safety? If the organization is not hiring security to provide adequate coverage for the duration of the event, is there any provision to reimburse the city in the case that local police must provide additional personel or overtime over and above normal patrol operations?
    I asked if they'd let us have a booth in the free speech area if we did not open carry. They refused that request as well.

    We can go as individuals and pass out information, but I don't even want to encourage anyone to show up and spend one dime there until they change their policy.

  12. #12
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Petition the city council to revoke the permit of the organizers of the Manhatten Beach Homeowner Fair on the basis that a public event should not deny the constitutionally protected right to bear arms on public property that would otherwise allow open carry. Make the city take action to force the permit holder to allow legal carry of weapons or revoke the permit to use the public streets.

    And/or sponsor your own fair. Make it a "Restore the Constitution" fair. Encourage open carry. "Rent" the same public streets. Just make sure its not in a school zone.
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I asked if they'd let us have a booth in the free speech area if we did not open carry. They refused that request as well.


    Well screw that. I'd plan on going and open carrying and handing out flyers. As C3 has pointed out, if the entire area isn't cordoned off, then it's open to the public and should be following general public laws. If it is cordoned off, then I'd organize a group of people to stand outside the main entrance and hand out flyers while open carrying and just informing people of their rights. If people ask why you're outside the entrance, feel free to tell them why, but I wouldn't make that the focus of you being there.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wtf!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I asked if they'd let us have a booth in the free speech area if we did not open carry. They refused that request as well.

    We can go as individuals and pass out information, but I don't even want to encourage anyone to show up and spend one dime there until they change their policy.
    HOW could anyone DENY you the right to speak freely at the FREE SPEACH area???
    I know california is fubar, BUT, BUT, How could they even think about abridging the 1st amendment???
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  15. #15
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    HOW could anyone DENY you the right to speak freely at the FREE SPEACH area???
    I know california is fubar, BUT, BUT, How could they even think about abridging the 1st amendment???
    Is the fair being held in a VDZ? If not, then I agree with Sons of Liberty, take action with the local city council to revoke their permit for the event on the basis of civil rights infringements.

  16. #16
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolusername2007 View Post
    Is the fair being held in a VDZ? If not, then I agree with Sons of Liberty, take action with the local city council to revoke their permit for the event on the basis of civil rights infringements.
    We have been emailing the fair directors, several have emailed the city council expressing their frustration with the city allowing a fair on public property with such policies.

    If you would like to do something to help the cause please take a moment and email the city council to let them know your frustration: CityCouncil@citymb.info

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    Email sent to the City Council...
    Springfield EMP 9mm, Kimber Stainless Target II .45, and a Bersa .380 ... More to come...

  18. #18
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    I'm watching to see what happens!

    Best of luck to all of you who decide to fight this. I highly suggest PM'ing or contacting those in the Michigan forum who battled their city council and the producers of Arts, Beats, and Eats when they tried to ban legally carried firearms on public property. I'm sure they'd have some great suggestions on how to work on this problem.

    After all, it is "public" property. If they want to dictate rules, maybe they should choose a private venue where they can pick and choose the civil rights they wish to acknowledge. Otherwise, how does a private entity get to make rules over publicly accessed areas?

    The folks in the Michigan forum will have great advice. We're all on the same team with the same goals. I highly suggest using all our available assets and strengths.

  19. #19
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    The police chief has weighed in. Looks like they believe the fair leaders can ban whatever they want on public grounds. What's next, banning a certain ethnicity that is deemed not "family friendly"??

    Banning dogs and bicycles is fine because those are not constitutional rights that US citizens hold, self-defense with a handgun is, according to the SCOTUS.
    Its also curious that the MB Fair leaders tried to tell me that they've always banned weapons at the fair, yet the chief says this ban is "this year, a specific ban" unique for this year.

    I have also filed a PRAR (http://www.southbayopencarry.org/wp-...-9-15-10v2.pdf) to determine the exact nature of the contract between the city and the Fair association.

    It is a real shame the fair leadership has decided to put this road block up. Why couldn't they just respect our rights and let everyone be friends like Fiesta Hermosa??

    Here is the chief's email as a response to a press inquiry:

    As you have been informed by our City Attorney, the Hometown Fair Committee controls the Fair, not the City of Manhattan Beach. As such, they can set rules in place for the safety and enjoyment of their patrons, such as banning dogs and other pets, bicycles, rollerblades, skateboards, and this year, a specific ban on firearms, unless a peace officer.



    As a police officer, I am allowed to be armed anywhere I go in this country, however, any private entity can deny my entrance to their event if I am armed, even to public lands, as I have a choice on whether to attend an event or not. I choose to leave my firearm in my car or at home when I attend these events as I am subject to arrest if those controlling the event wish me arrested for violating their rules.



    Therefore, should anyone violate the Fair rules and the Board wants them arrested for failing to comply after requests to follow their rules, we shall honor what will likely be a private persons arrest for disturbing the peace. All such arrests will be audio, and possibly, video recorded. It is our hope that no arrests will be necessary.



    Although I do not know the case off the top of my head, a similar recent case held that a "Fair" can ban what they consider "gang attire" from their Fair (which I believe was held on public land), even though those wearing the clothes felt it was a first amendment right.



    I suspect that if Open Carry wishes to intentionally violate the Fair Boards rules at the Hometown Fair, it will not go over well with the community at large. We deeply respect Open Carry’s rights and really appreciate their willingness to work with communities to avoid conflict and for the safety of all those involved. I wish you well in your future endeavors.



    BTW….I believe Captain Leaf is preparing an updated map of restricted areas. American Martyrs School is within 1000 feet of a significant part of Veterans Parkway, and Valley, north of 15th Street, which makes up part of the Fair grounds.



    Rod Uyeda

    Chief of Police
    Last edited by hgreen; 09-15-2010 at 01:52 PM.

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    Boycott the Fair AND the charities they support.

    And let them know.

    How's that?

  21. #21
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    California Penal Code § 415. Disturbing the Peace

    Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment and fine:

    (1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or challenges another person in a public place to fight.

    (2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another person by loud and unreasonable noise.

    (3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction
    Disturbing the peace really doesnt apply here. No one is challenging anyone to a fight, no one would be making loud or unreasonable noise, and no one would be using offensive words. The chief is using this as a catch all to intimidate people for lawful behaviour. The violation of the fair policy is not a criminal act and is not an arrestable offense. If this was being held at a private venue the only thing I believe the police could do is ask you to leave, and then trespass you (PC 602) if you didnt comply. Since this is a public event, in a public venue they would have to find another PC to run you in on.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  22. #22
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    The violation of the fair policy is not a criminal act and is not an arrestable offense. If this was being held at a private venue the only thing I believe the police could do is ask you to leave, and then trespass you (PC 602) if you didnt comply. Since this is a public event, in a public venue they would have to find another PC to run you in on.
    +1.

    Here's a Tennessee AG opinion on whether or not prohibiting "gang clothing" would be constitutional: http://www.tennessee.gov/attorneygen...9/op/op114.pdf
    The AG finds that such a regulation would be unconstitutionally vague and declares a specific Tennessee statute to be overbroad. In short, bearing arms is constitutionally protected behavior. The fair is infringing on your rights and they will continue to do so until you convince them otherwise or until a court helps convince them otherwise.
    Last edited by bigtoe416; 09-15-2010 at 04:11 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    +1.

    Here's a Tennessee AG opinion on whether or not prohibiting "gang clothing" would be constitutional: http://www.tennessee.gov/attorneygen...9/op/op114.pdf
    The AG finds that such a regulation would be unconstitutionally vague and declares a specific Tennessee statute to be overbroad.
    There are definately cases right here in CA and in the 9th circuit which have both upheld and shotdown some specific instances of 'clothing bans'

    I am not particularly well-versed on the subject, but I'll give you my layman's understanding.

    I think the specific ban against a free-speech item like clothing is required to have very specific reasons for 1A limitation. For example: a ban at the county faire of motorcycle club 'colors' The ban would need to articulate that there is a clear safety risk of rival clubs duking it out, shooting, etc that causes an unwanted tangible danger. Lots of citable refereces for that example...

    Whereas something standalone suchas 'no purple shirts' wouldn't fly.

    In other words, they can't arbitrarily deny a constitutional right without explicit justification.

    BTW, I'm not saying its correct todo such things...but I think that's how it works...

  24. #24
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    If anyone would like to voice their displeasure with the policies, threats, and failure to abide by the constitution that has been seen here, please send an email to: mbfair@southbayopencarry.org

    It is an alias that will forward the email to the fair committee, city council, and police chief.

  25. #25
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your continued support and letters!
    I've seen dozens of letters to the city and fair officials now. Several will be posted on our website: www.southbayopencarry.org

    We also have the eyes and ears of local press who are curious as to why a city and fair would violate civil rights...


    Keep up the good work! Let them know how you feel about the city and fair infringing on your 2A rights: mbfair@southbayopencarry.org
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