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Thread: Arts, Beats, & Eats Festival - Pistol Free Zone Designation Discussion

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Arts, Beats, & Eats Festival - Pistol Free Zone Designation Discussion

    Due to the recent City Commission Meeting, I have created and sent the following email.

    David J. Poulton, City Commissioner
    City of Royal Oak, MI

    Mr. David J. Poulton,

    This letter is a follow-up pertaining to your discussion points on Pistol or Gun Free Zones and possible application to the Arts, Beats, & Eats Festival. You appear to be a reasonable person, so I will engage you with discourse of the same. All that is contained within this communication is In My Opinion only and I firmly believe you will find it to be useful. The attachments detail applicable law, applicable Michigan Attorney General Opinions, and analysis of such.

    During the September 13th 2010 City Commission Meeting, you stated that the Festival Operator could grant permission to persons residing or working in a business within the Festival Grounds to possess firearms. A Festival Operator cannot grant persons the right to violate State Law. I am surprised that you, as an elected City Official charged with understanding and upholding the law, would make such an uninformed statement. I ask you to reconsider this statement.

    I believe that you will find this information complete and answers to the ability to declare the Festival Grounds a Pistol or Gun Free Zone. I again encourage you, or any other Royal Oak City Official, to contact me to discuss these points if you require further clarification.


    Sincerely,

    PDinDetroit

    cc:
    The Honorable Mayor, Jim Ellison
    Donald E. Johnson, City Manager
    David Gillam, City Attorney
    Michael Andrzejak, City Commissioner
    Patricia Capello, City Commissioner
    Terry Drinkwine, City Commissioner
    Jim Rasor, City Commissioner
    Charles Semchena, City Commissioner
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry Leaders who thumb their noses at the LAW (ie the will of the people).

    Who needs to obey the laws of the land when you can just make up your own for your own little "Tin Pot" dictatorship? Snark now disengaged.



    This sums up their actions in my honest opinion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6cyD...eature=related
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 09-15-2010 at 05:46 PM. Reason: add Judge Dredd ref.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Even though I disagree with Commissioner Poulton and his position, I commend him for responding to my email.

    PDinDetroit:

    Thank you for contacing me about an important issue in the city. I appreciate your enthusiasm on this issue. However, despite your spirited arguments in support of your position, I stand by my interpretation of the law and its application to Arts, Beats and Eats. I wish you the best in your pursuit of educating the public on your area of interest.

    Sincerely,

    Dave Poulton
    Here is my response to him:

    Mr Poulton:

    Thank you for the reply. I only ask that you, as a City Commissioner, follow applicable laws.

    What is your position on the following statements?

    The Festival Operator could grant permission to persons residing or working in a business within the Festival Grounds to possess firearms. A Festival Operator cannot grant persons the right to violate State Law.

    - PDinDetroit

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Who needs to obey the laws of the land when you can just make up your own for your own little "Tin Pot" dictatorship? Snark now disengaged.
    I do truly believe that Commissioner Poulton believes he is right in interpreting the issue as he is. Either that, or he is seeing the PFZ definitions so as to fit the result he seeks.

    I give him credit as being the first City Commissioner to actually engage in any sort of reply to me as a resident of the city. He has engaged in polite discourse, which is to his credit, even if he is completely wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I do truly believe that Commissioner Poulton believes he is right in interpreting the issue as he is. Either that, or he is seeing the PFZ definitions so as to fit the result he seeks.

    I give him credit as being the first City Commissioner to actually engage in any sort of reply to me as a resident of the city. He has engaged in polite discourse, which is to his credit, even if he is completely wrong.
    You might want to ask him how they can ignore the laws as they see fit yet change laws they don't like? 1 Disorderly conduct for open alcohol and 2 Minors allowed unattended where alcohol is served.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maustin195 View Post
    You might want to ask him how they can ignore the laws as they see fit yet change laws they don't like? 1 Disorderly conduct for open alcohol and 2 Minors allowed unattended where alcohol is served.
    Agreed, that will be within another Open Letter.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    You hit the nail directly on the head.

    I will start my comparison by saying, I have never taken drugs, smoked pot, I don't even drink nor smoke ciggs.

    The people in Michigan voted in the Medical Marijuana law and behold the Michigan State Legislature is going to pass a law to circumvent the medical Marijuana law by allowing the Police to give random drug tests to anyone in a motor vehicle. This swab test is very inaccurate and gives many false positives. But if tested and you test positive you loose your drivers license. This is sneaky as anyone knows that the active ingredient of Marijuana is THC. The problem is that THC depending on your metabolism can stay up to 28 days in your blood stream even when it is ineffective. Fact is they really don't know what Molecule of the compound THC causes the high. So they can only test for a group of chemicals IE a compound.

    This is nothing more than the State Legislature trying to NULLIFY the will of the people. The legislature bought and paid for by drug corporations wants any method of pain control stopped if the Drug corporations can't monopolize on it. I don't care from drugs, nor alcohol, but I see a greater threat here, this threat is our Governments trying to erase the will of the people, and the constitution one bill at a time.

    Then add in the fact that the all the data collected on drugs, alcohol, and you name it, and Marijuana is still the safest pain killer ever known to date. I know a few people who (some former Law enforcement) who say that it is the best pain control they have used to date. Far less dangerous or addictive than anything else out there. Yet the Michigan Legislature is bound and determined to usurp power from WE THE PEOPLE who in a landslide approved Medical Marijuana.

    See there is a connection here between gun rights and medical Marijuana it is a battle of the will of the people vs despots who are trying to find ways to unseat the will of the people. No matter my long standing belief and conviction to not drink or do any drugs, I do support Medical Marijuana because I am humane and don't want to see people suffer. But there is a war brewing and it is a war against the people and the Constitution. Soon they will find ways to usurp your carry and all gun rights one small step at a time. It can be anything from more gun free zones to restrictions on lead ammo. We better wake up liberals and conservatives will loose in this battle coming. These laws will come with a small bit of your rights so small that most people will give in and say it's only........... That is the plan to whittle our rights a tiny bit at a time and pitting each group against another.

    For me it is simple I will fight even for the rights of a liberal and that right that I might not care for, because if one right is lost then soon all will be lost. This new drug testing bill is the first shot across the bow of the constitution, the people spoke and spoke LOUDLY on medical Marijuana, and I support the right of the people, not my own comfort or personal views on Marijuana use. It has become us (the people) against them (the Elite).


    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Who needs to obey the laws of the land when you can just make up your own for your own little "Tin Pot" dictatorship? Snark now disengaged.



    This sums up their actions in my honest opinion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6cyD...eature=related
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    That's exactly right. I don't smoke either, but Ill tell anyone, that when pot was on the ballot, i made it a point to go out and vote. It was the first time that I had voted in quite a while, and the only reason that I did vote. Im glad that it passed as well, and further would vote to re legalise it in all forms for all reasons.

    The us vs. them gap is widening at an alarming rate.

    Since when is receiving a DL implied consent, or greater than the 4th amendment. Why couldn't someone simply refuse the test?

    I see a huge red flag here, I wouldn't put it past them to use this for a DNA database while they were at it.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Well said Sir! You are officially at the head of the 2A class in this thread ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    You hit the nail directly on the head.

    I will start my comparison by saying, I have never taken drugs, smoked pot, I don't even drink nor smoke ciggs.

    The people in Michigan voted in the Medical Marijuana law and behold the Michigan State Legislature is going to pass a law to circumvent the medical Marijuana law by allowing the Police to give random drug tests to anyone in a motor vehicle. This swab test is very inaccurate and gives many false positives. But if tested and you test positive you loose your drivers license. This is sneaky as anyone knows that the active ingredient of Marijuana is THC. The problem is that THC depending on your metabolism can stay up to 28 days in your blood stream even when it is ineffective. Fact is they really don't know what Molecule of the compound THC causes the high. So they can only test for a group of chemicals IE a compound.

    This is nothing more than the State Legislature trying to NULLIFY the will of the people. The legislature bought and paid for by drug corporations wants any method of pain control stopped if the Drug corporations can't monopolize on it. I don't care from drugs, nor alcohol, but I see a greater threat here, this threat is our Governments trying to erase the will of the people, and the constitution one bill at a time.

    Then add in the fact that the all the data collected on drugs, alcohol, and you name it, and Marijuana is still the safest pain killer ever known to date. I know a few people who (some former Law enforcement) who say that it is the best pain control they have used to date. Far less dangerous or addictive than anything else out there. Yet the Michigan Legislature is bound and determined to usurp power from WE THE PEOPLE who in a landslide approved Medical Marijuana.

    See there is a connection here between gun rights and medical Marijuana it is a battle of the will of the people vs despots who are trying to find ways to unseat the will of the people. No matter my long standing belief and conviction to not drink or do any drugs, I do support Medical Marijuana because I am humane and don't want to see people suffer. But there is a war brewing and it is a war against the people and the Constitution. Soon they will find ways to usurp your carry and all gun rights one small step at a time. It can be anything from more gun free zones to restrictions on lead ammo. We better wake up liberals and conservatives will loose in this battle coming. These laws will come with a small bit of your rights so small that most people will give in and say it's only........... That is the plan to whittle our rights a tiny bit at a time and pitting each group against another.

    For me it is simple I will fight even for the rights of a liberal and that right that I might not care for, because if one right is lost then soon all will be lost. This new drug testing bill is the first shot across the bow of the constitution, the people spoke and spoke LOUDLY on medical Marijuana, and I support the right of the people, not my own comfort or personal views on Marijuana use. It has become us (the people) against them (the Elite).
    Huge +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    You hit the nail directly on the head.

    I will start my comparison by saying, I have never taken drugs, smoked pot, I don't even drink nor smoke ciggs.

    The people in Michigan voted in the Medical Marijuana law and behold the Michigan State Legislature is going to pass a law to circumvent the medical Marijuana law by allowing the Police to give random drug tests to anyone in a motor vehicle. This swab test is very inaccurate and gives many false positives. But if tested and you test positive you loose your drivers license. This is sneaky as anyone knows that the active ingredient of Marijuana is THC. The problem is that THC depending on your metabolism can stay up to 28 days in your blood stream even when it is ineffective. Fact is they really don't know what Molecule of the compound THC causes the high. So they can only test for a group of chemicals IE a compound.

    This is nothing more than the State Legislature trying to NULLIFY the will of the people. The legislature bought and paid for by drug corporations wants any method of pain control stopped if the Drug corporations can't monopolize on it. I don't care from drugs, nor alcohol, but I see a greater threat here, this threat is our Governments trying to erase the will of the people, and the constitution one bill at a time.

    Then add in the fact that the all the data collected on drugs, alcohol, and you name it, and Marijuana is still the safest pain killer ever known to date. I know a few people who (some former Law enforcement) who say that it is the best pain control they have used to date. Far less dangerous or addictive than anything else out there. Yet the Michigan Legislature is bound and determined to usurp power from WE THE PEOPLE who in a landslide approved Medical Marijuana.

    See there is a connection here between gun rights and medical Marijuana it is a battle of the will of the people vs despots who are trying to find ways to unseat the will of the people. No matter my long standing belief and conviction to not drink or do any drugs, I do support Medical Marijuana because I am humane and don't want to see people suffer. But there is a war brewing and it is a war against the people and the Constitution. Soon they will find ways to usurp your carry and all gun rights one small step at a time. It can be anything from more gun free zones to restrictions on lead ammo. We better wake up liberals and conservatives will loose in this battle coming. These laws will come with a small bit of your rights so small that most people will give in and say it's only........... That is the plan to whittle our rights a tiny bit at a time and pitting each group against another.

    For me it is simple I will fight even for the rights of a liberal and that right that I might not care for, because if one right is lost then soon all will be lost. This new drug testing bill is the first shot across the bow of the constitution, the people spoke and spoke LOUDLY on medical Marijuana, and I support the right of the people, not my own comfort or personal views on Marijuana use. It has become us (the people) against them (the Elite).
    You do know that, predictably probably better then 99% of the people getting "prescriptions" for weed are perfectly healthy right? I see no difference between them, and pill poppers who abuse conventional pain killers. Maybe I'd have more sympathy except for the fact that the pain killing aspect has been isolated, and is available in the pill form, but of course the pill doesn't get you high, so they don't want that, kind of shows you what there really after doesn't it?

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Huge +1
    Thx for quoting that. It is such a good post I am going to remove him from my ignore list now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Small Arms Collector View Post
    You do know that, predictably probably better then 99% of the people getting "prescriptions" for weed are perfectly healthy right?
    I imagine you have some sort of evidence for this stat?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Small Arms Collector View Post
    You do know that, predictably probably better then 99% of the people getting "prescriptions" for weed are perfectly healthy right? I see no difference between them, and pill poppers who abuse conventional pain killers.
    As Fozzy1 said, citation needed. What's more, I think we should make all drugs legal (assuming one takes full responsibility for any outcomes). But that's the Libertarian in me -- and I digress from the topic.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    I have at least 8 friends who suffer from NO medical problems and have gotten their medical marijuana card in order to grow it.

    see all those billboards around metro Detroit that say "get your medical marijuana card!" they mean exactly that. you call the number, make an appointment, the doctor says, "do you have problems sleeping?" you say "yes." he writes you the paperwork needed for the state application. does this mean 99% of people with the card have no need for it? probably not, but, you can bet that a majority do not need it.


    also, they are going to eventually use medical marijuana cards to start pulling peoples drivers licenses, they are already trying to pass roadside drug testing, mark my words, they want people out of cars and locked in homes, get one at your own risk

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    Im thinking about getting one, not to use, but out of protest. Sort of like a vote. I do qualify BTW, I have a bad back, and need to see the chiropractor sometimes twice a week.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-16-2010 at 11:07 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry Blah blah blah.....

    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    I have at least 8 friends who suffer from NO medical problems and have gotten their medical marijuana card in order to grow it.

    see all those billboards around metro Detroit that say "get your medical marijuana card!" they mean exactly that. you call the number, make an appointment, the doctor says, "do you have problems sleeping?" you say "yes." he writes you the paperwork needed for the state application. does this mean 99% of people with the card have no need for it? probably not, but, you can bet that a majority do not need it.


    also, they are going to eventually use medical marijuana cards to start pulling peoples drivers licenses, they are already trying to pass roadside drug testing, mark my words, they want people out of cars and locked in homes, get one at your own risk
    While I understand everyone's concerns about those who "might" abuse the M cards; these are the same arguments used to sway people into anti 2A positions. "We'll someone might flip out & shoot up AB&E, the children what about the children???" Never mind that they will be exposed to thousands of non pistol carrying drunks, who will then hop in a 2,000 lbs+ chunk of steel & glass filled with explosive liquid & attempt to drive it. All within a stones throw from the festival goers?

    I lost my mom just over a year ago from cancer. She suffered through incredible pain, if pot would have helped her I would of made sure she got it legally, period. It's a personal choice to carry a sidearm legally. Some people do it all the time, others could never imagine doing it. I see this issues as the same, if they have the pot legally then so be it. If not, report them just as you would some dumb-ass you saw brandish a pistol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    While I understand everyone's concerns about those who "might" abuse the M cards; these are the same arguments used to sway people into anti 2A positions. "We'll someone might flip out & shoot up AB&E, the children what about the children???" Never mind that they will be exposed to thousands of non pistol carrying drunks, who will then hop in a 2,000 lbs+ chunk of steel & glass filled with explosive liquid & attempt to drive it. All within a stones throw from the festival goers?

    I lost my mom just over a year ago from cancer. She suffered through incredible pain, if pot would have helped her I would of made sure she got it legally, period. It's a personal choice to carry a sidearm legally. Some people do it all the time, others could never imagine doing it. I see this issues as the same, if they have the pot legally then so be it. If not, report them just as you would some dumb-ass you saw brandish a pistol.
    Agreed +1 I see no difference between the drug laws today and alcohol prohibition back in the 20's and 30's
    Last edited by pmcqueen37; 09-16-2010 at 05:50 PM.
    live every day like its your last cause one day you will be right

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    you call the number, make an appointment, the doctor says, "do you have problems sleeping?" you say "yes." he writes you the paperwork needed for the state application.
    I have trouble sleeping; maybe I should look into this...

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    Its an outstanding sleep aid. It won't make you sleep through a home invasion, or house fire either. If woken up you can still function properly, and it won't make you drag through work the next day either.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    either way, they will be using medical marijuana cards to pull your drives lisences, and I suspect theyll use it as a way to take your 2a also, just like they do with vets being diagnosed with PTSD

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I was at a private party at Rochester Hills tonight. The topic of OC at ABE was brought up (not by me). The general consensus, even amongst gun owners, was they didn't like it.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I was at a private party at Rochester Hills tonight. The topic of OC at ABE was brought up (not by me). The general consensus, even amongst gun owners, was they didn't like it.
    Did you venture to ask why? Just curious what their reasons are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    either way, they will be using medical marijuana cards to pull your drives lisences, and I suspect theyll use it as a way to take your 2a also, just like they do with vets being diagnosed with PTSD
    Excellent point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Did you venture to ask why? Just curious what their reasons are?
    No, I focused more on the aspect that it IS legal -- someone was questioning this point. After that, the conversation had moved on.

    The party was with folks who are themselves different from the societal norms. I found it interesting they were so judgmental of another group who was different from societal norms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    either way, they will be using medical marijuana cards to pull your drives lisences, and I suspect theyll use it as a way to take your 2a also, just like they do with vets being diagnosed with PTSD
    Whom are you suggesting will pull your DL or 2A? States that have had MM a lot longer than us haven't had either problem.

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