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Thread: legal requirement to hand over firearm to police if requested?

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    legal requirement to hand over firearm to police if requested?

    I'm going to get a firearm in about a month and am wondering if there is a legal requirement to hand over a firearm if asked to by the police? I really REALLY don't want to do that and doubt the cops in my area (Rockbridge County) would make an issue of the whole "officer safety" BS, but I'm just wondering.

    My protest would be something like "my firearm is safest where it is, in the holster and I do not consent to seizure of my property w/o a warrant." Anyway, if there's no legal requirement and the officer takes it anyway, is there a chance of anything holding up in court (on either of our ends) regarding 4th amendment violations/resisting an order?....I guess that's 2 questions. A link to the legislation regarding this and/or personal experiences would be appreciated.

    Thanks.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Cops do not generally ask you to hand over your firearm for officer safety - they tell you they are going to take it from you. This is not a common occurrance, but if it happens you have a few choices.

    Shorten your response to something along the likes of "I do not consent but will not resist." It's easier to remember and you may get it all said before the cop tells you to stop talking.

    Keep your hands away from your firearm & holster at all times once the cop(s) have indicated they are interested in you and your activity.

    You can, if you like, offer to instruct them on how your holster works. Be polite and not condescending. Keep your hands away from your holster and firearm. Do not point. Do not turn or twist. (Suggestions from me to you. No rules that I know of regarding this.)

    While there is no legal requirement that I know of to actually hand it over, there are, as you can imagine, a lot of good reasons not to oppose the taking of the weapon while there in the middle of the event. That's what attorneys and courts, and formal written complaints, are for.

    If, on the other hand, the cop asks you to take the firearm out of the holster, I'd politely decline and state that it is safer staying there without anybody handling it. Again, keep your hands away from it while having this discussion.

    While arms folded across the chest are usually seen as an aggressive/angry gesture, it is an option that puts your hands away from your holster. Interlacing your fingers (folding your hands) and holding them in front of you at bellybuton height may be seen as somewhat less aggressive. Putting your hands up in the air or on your head is probably going a bit too far unless specifically directed to do so.

    If you have not yet joined VCDL www.vcdl.org consider doing so, or at least signing up for the free email newsletter. Go talk to the VCDL volunteers who are at the local gunshows, and also find out about some OC events near you so you can talk with folks who may have more experiences than you do. (Remember that we are fukk of advice among other things, but the answers are not guaranteed to either cover all circumstances or even be "correct". Check for yourself and make your own decisions.)

    Oh, yeah! A digital voice recorder (so a search for recommendations/reports) never is a bad investment.

    Welcome to the world of firearms ownership and OCing.

    stay safe.

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    I've already decided I'll never instruct an officer on how to remove my firearm from my person. That could be, in my opinion, construed as consent. I also won't answer questions, at least irrelevant ones, w/o a lawyer present. I have a very real distrust of police and am pleasantly shocked when I am respected by one of them. Are police protected by a law/statute if they take your firearm w/o your consent? To me, that seems a blatant violation of the 4th amendment right to be secure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    SNIP Are police protected by a law/statute if they take your firearm w/o your consent? To me, that seems a blatant violation of the 4th amendment right to be secure.
    In certain circumstances they are.

    Welcome aboard. And, congratulations on asking the right questions.

    According to a US Supreme Court opinion, Terry vs Ohio, police can temporarily disarm you without violating your 4A rights under certain circumstances. Here is the short version. Read each word. Reading law is a little different than reading Sports Illustrated. Don't skim over it and try to take away a meaning. Read and consider each and every word.

    ...Each case of this sort will, of course, have to be decided on its own facts. We merely hold today that, where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where, in the course of investigating this behavior, he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him... Terry vs Ohio

    You will want to read the entire case. 4th Amendment cases are easy to read. Hardly any legalese. They often give history and the courts rationale for deciding the way they did.

    Here's Terry:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html




    Welcome to the journey of discovering your rights, and the limits on police authority.



    Below linked is a whole post full of court cases that, at one time or another, have come up as being applicable to some situation an OCer found himself in during a police encounter. Dig in and have fun. When you go to read a case, look first for the "syllabus"--just a fancy word for summary. Then look for the "holding" or "we conclude" part of the opinion itself to see how it checks against the summary, mainly to see if you misunderstood something from reading the summary. Then read the entire case. This may not be the lawyerly way to read the case, but I've found it useful. Especially if I cannot read and consider the whole opinion in one sitting. This way, if I get interrupted or have only a little time, I at least have a concept of the gist of the case until I come back and look into carefully.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...light=inchoate

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    Understand that my preceding post is only about the legalities. Tactics during a police encounter are a whole different subject. Your tactics are the senior thing you want to sort out. Your tactics should take into account:
    • the law--ordinances, statutes, court opinions, etc.
    • human nature, as applied to cops
    • realities, in the way of the legal advantages a cop has (huge, and powerful)
    • your own safety
    • protecting your own legal situation if things go down hill (big concern)
    You can start working out tactics by watching the two videos linked below.

    I would sum up police encounter tactics as "Comply while politely, verbally refusing consent." The videos will give you a bit more explanation.


    Busted by FlexYourRights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

    Don't Talk to Police by Prof. James Duane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

    Ten Rules for Dealing with Police by FlexYourRights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmrbN...eature=related


    Then, just for humor, How Not to Get Your A$$ Kicked by Police, by Chris Rock:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

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    I haven't read the links to the cases you provided yet. I'll have to wait until a later time to do so, probably this weekend. However, in my understanding of Terry v. Ohio and "Terry Stops", there must be 3 conditions that must be met in order to justify such a stop. I understand that they are:

    1. The officer must believe you have just committed a crime.

    2. The officer must believe you are currently committing a crime.

    3. The officer must believe that you are about to commit a crime.

    When I say "believe", I actually mean they must have RAS (reasonable suspicion). Whereas my normal behavior to a reasonable person wouldn't constitute reasonable fear for the officer's or others' safety, I would think that a non voluntary surrender of my personal firearm would fall under a 4th amendment violation and/or perhaps a 2nd amendment violation. However, this is without reading the full text of Terry v. Ohio or other cases. Hmmm, maybe I should go to law school in a few years.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Give Terry v. Ohio a read. That should answer your question about firearm seizures. (A siezure does not involve running the serial number through any database) Note that it may not be possible for you to know if an officer has RAS.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    This topic comes up on a regular basis.

    We recommend that CHP holders immediately notify the officer that you are carrying. Some officers may feel it necessary to take control of a firearm for whatever reason. While Virginia does not require notification, some states require that you notify an officer immediately that you are carrying and some states even require that you allow the officer to take control of the firearm. Here's an example from Louisiana:

    http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html

    Duties of Permittees
    The permit shall be retained by the permittee who shall immediately produce it upon the request of any law enforcement officer. Anyone who fails to do so shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars. Additionally, when any peace officer approaches a permittee in an official manner or with an identified purpose, the permittee shall:

    1. Notify the officer that he has a weapon on his person;

    2. Submit to a pat down;

    3. Allow the officer to temporarily disarm him.





    Since many people travel to other states with their permits, its prudent to have one set way of doing things that may satisfy the requirements of all states.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Since many people travel to other states with their permits, its prudent to have one set way of doing things that may satisfy the requirements of all states.
    Oh I dunno... I'd prefer not to give up any more rights than I absolutely have to. Obviously that takes some effort.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    I'm going to get a firearm in about a month and am wondering if there is a legal requirement to hand over a firearm if asked to by the police? I really REALLY don't want to do that and doubt the cops in my area (Rockbridge County) would make an issue of the whole "officer safety" BS, but I'm just wondering.

    My protest would be something like "my firearm is safest where it is, in the holster and I do not consent to seizure of my property w/o a warrant." Anyway, if there's no legal requirement and the officer takes it anyway, is there a chance of anything holding up in court (on either of our ends) regarding 4th amendment violations/resisting an order?....I guess that's 2 questions. A link to the legislation regarding this and/or personal experiences would be appreciated.

    Thanks.
    There is a sharp learning curve with knowing what to say with any LEO encounter. Your first encounter will be the most painful. After that, it gets so much easier. You must be willing to learn the laws and know them cold. LEOS will lie to get the answers they want they will become upset if you tell them there job and or the law. LEOS escalate the situation if they feel it will give them total control. They can take the weapon during a traffic stop under officer safety even if you decline your permission. Some will have you hand it to them, others will ask you to step out if the car and they will remove it for you Some will not care as long as you tell them you are armed. There favorite threats are obstruction of justice, disorderly conduct, and disturbing the peace. There is no permit required to openly carry a firearm in VA .You will learn over time and encounters how to feel out the situation and how to proceed with the encounter.

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    I think I have a pretty fair understanding of the laws in Va from researching and reading the forums. In regards to what ProShooter said, the numbered list, is that from LA? There's no duty to inform in Va, as far as I understand, so is that from the LA statute or someone or some organization's rules? I don't necessarily follow rules that aren't codified when it comes to personal decisions that don't hurt anyone. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or cocky, it's just that with the erosion of civil liberties is really starting to make me angry and distrustful of most government bodies. When it gets down to it, the chance of me running afoul of any LEO are probably very very slim. I just want to be prepared. The root of what I'm getting at is this, I guess: If there is no statute/law saying I must surrender a firearm when asked to and/or no statute or law saying, expressly, that an LEO has the right to disarm someone carrying (concealed or openly), they're going to have a hard time getting it from me. I mean, I'm not going to push their hand away or anything, but I'll argue. Of course this is all what I would LIKE to do and what I envision myself doing. In reality, I might say "yes sir, sorry sir". Also, a lot of my concerns come from nerves. I'm not nervous around guns, but I've also never carried one in public. I'm just kind of thinking things through. Kind of like jumping off a diving board for the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    SNIP If there is no statute/law saying I must surrender a firearm when asked to and/or no statute or law saying, expressly, that an LEO has the right to disarm someone carrying (concealed or openly), they're going to have a hard time getting it from me. I mean, I'm not going to push their hand away or anything, but I'll argue.
    This is why I supplied you all the information. You are trying to encompass a number of things all at once, without knowing the underlying law and ramifications. Nothing wrong with using your head to pose and resolve problems. In this subject, though, if you get it wrong, even a little bit, you can go to jail, or get lumps and bruises from a cop--and then still go to jail.

    So, watch the videos first. Then read the Terry v Ohio. Then other cases as you have time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    I haven't read the links to the cases you provided yet. I'll have to wait until a later time to do so, probably this weekend. However, in my understanding of Terry v. Ohio and "Terry Stops", there must be 3 conditions that must be met in order to justify such a stop. I understand that they are:

    1. The officer must believe you have just committed a crime.

    2. The officer must believe you are currently committing a crime.

    3. The officer must believe that you are about to commit a crime.

    When I say "believe", I actually mean they must have RAS (reasonable suspicion). Whereas my normal behavior to a reasonable person wouldn't constitute reasonable fear for the officer's or others' safety, I would think that a non voluntary surrender of my personal firearm would fall under a 4th amendment violation and/or perhaps a 2nd amendment violation. However, this is without reading the full text of Terry v. Ohio or other cases. Hmmm, maybe I should go to law school in a few years.
    Yes. But, here is the rub. The cop is not required to tell you his reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). And, even if he does, there are too many possible angles for you to safely act during the encounter itself on what he states as RAS.

    Whether you ask the cop for his RAS or he volunteers it, the time to act on it will almost always be after the encounter. Meaning, file his comment away in memory. Or, ask for clarification. But, do nothing physically. For example, do not walk away just because you think what he said is not reasonably suspicious. There are a number of legal angles to learn, yet. And while it may gall you to be seized and have your weapon seized, realize you don't know all the angles yet.

    As you learn you are not entirely powerless, the galling feeling will lessen. Meaning, as you learn there are things you can do and say relatively safely, you will be more and more in a position to influence the encounter in the direction of your interests, and you will feel less powerless, and consequently, less galled.

    And, study this subject long enough, and you will discover you can turn the tables on the cop during an encounter, and even feed him rope to hang himself with. Or, rather, feed him rope that you can then use after the encounter to choke him in a formal complaint, or hang him in a lawsuit. Once you have some of those arrows in your quiver, you become a walking danger to the cop's personnel file or checking account.

    But, first ya gotta learn your stuff. If you have any questions about what you learn, just post em up.

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    It sure is a lot to process at once. Especially considering I'm going from a mindset of "I want/need to do this but just can't afford to right now" to "I'm actually starting the process of doing this and there are so many things that could happen in any number of situations".

    From what I can gather from flexyourrights.org, the Regent law school "never talk to police" video lecture (where the law professor then the policeman talk and say the same thing), and other things I have read and videos I have seen, it seems the best way to respond to any questions from a cop are with questions of your own or with informing him of your exercising your 5th right. For instance, if a cop asks for my ID and I'm doing nothing illegal or not driving a car, I will hopefully reply politely with "Why do you need to see my ID, officer? Have I done something wrong?" Which brings up another question. If I'm just standing on the street or any public space and an officer asks to see my ID and I'm doing nothing wrong, am I required to show it in Va? I don't think I am, but am not quite sure. Not my CHP, but my license.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    SNIP For instance, if a cop asks for my ID and I'm doing nothing illegal or not driving a car, I will hopefully reply politely with "Why do you need to see my ID, officer? Have I done something wrong?" Which brings up another question. If I'm just standing on the street or any public space and an officer asks to see my ID and I'm doing nothing wrong, am I required to show it in Va? I don't think I am, but am not quite sure. Not my CHP, but my license.
    1) Probably best not to get into countering questions with questions (except for asking questions that obtain essential information.) It will just antagonize the cop. Best to avoid unnecessary antagonizing.

    I have successfully used the phrase, "No offense officer. I know you are just doing your job, but I ___________." Insert "refuse consent", "don't want to talk without an attorney", whatever right you are exercising.

    If you ask any questions, you might care to ask if you are being detained. As compared to why he needs to see ID. And, whether you are free to go.

    Otherwise, I wouldn't try verbal jousting with cops. They're used to it. Got all their lines well practiced. Its like being a part time florist cashier and trying to negotiate a contract against a seasoned agent in another industry. You just won't have enough experience to pull it off to your advantage. Once you get some experience and practice, you'll learn some of the more common cop verbal ploys and rejoinders, and you'll discover some ways to shut them down while making the cop look like a statist thug on the voice-recorder.

    2) There is no state stop-and-identify statute in VA. Stop meaning Terry Stop. Identify meaning via ID document like a drivers license, or verbally. Meaning there is no state statute compelling you to identify yourself to a police officer during a Terry Stop on foot or as a passenger in a vehicle.

    However, some localities seem to have stop-and-identify ordinances.

    Some OCers argue that since localities aquire their authority from the state, localities cannot make ordinances not authorized by the state. Google "Dillon Rule" for a better explanation; I may have it a little sideways or incomplete. Their argument is that such ordinances are invalid. Others seem to think local stop-and-identify ordinances are valid (as long as they comply with US Supreme Ct. decisions on the subject).

    For myself, what matters most to me is whether the cop thinks his local stop-and-identify ordinance is valid. I don't really care for the idea of being cited or arrested for refusing to identify if there happens to be an ordinance I don't know about. And, since I cannot possibly keep track of all the local ordinances where I travel in VA. And, since the cop is going to find out my name anyway when I send my formal complaint*, my plan is to verbally identify and at the same time politely verbally refuse consent. Meaning, I'll offer my name if he demands it, but I'll also make clear that I'm not doing it because I consent. Only because his authoritative demand is making me feel compliance may be compelled.

    There is a danger in this. Once they know a name and address, if they cook up something after the encounter, they will know who to pin the charge on. Same for if they discover some inadvertant violation on the OCers part only after the encounter. With the OCers identifiers, they know where to send the summons, warrant, etc. This actually happened to an OCer in CA. Cops seized his ID from his wallet without his consent but couldn't cite him for anything. Later, the prosecutor brought charges by twisting the meaning of a word in the law. And, asked the court to reinterpret the meaning of that word to make the charge stick. The judge did. The OCer was convicted. It is a small danger, I think. But, I figure you should know so you can decide if it is small or big, likely or unlikely, for yourself.

    *My policy is a formal complaint for every investigative police encounter. Even a consensual encounter where the cops are just checking me out proves the unacceptable attitude that mere possession of a firearm warrants suspicion.
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-17-2010 at 03:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Yes. But, here is the rub. The cop is not required to tell you his reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). And, even if he does, there are too many possible angles for you to safely act during the encounter itself on what he states as RAS.

    Whether you ask the cop for his RAS or he volunteers it, the time to act on it will almost always be after the encounter. Meaning, file his comment away in memory. Or, ask for clarification. But, do nothing physically. For example, do not walk away just because you think what he said is not reasonably suspicious. There are a number of legal angles to learn, yet. And while it may gall you to be seized and have your weapon seized, realize you don't know all the angles yet.

    As you learn you are not entirely powerless, the galling feeling will lessen. Meaning, as you learn there are things you can do and say relatively safely, you will be more and more in a position to influence the encounter in the direction of your interests, and you will feel less powerless, and consequently, less galled.

    And, study this subject long enough, and you will discover you can turn the tables on the cop during an encounter, and even feed him rope to hang himself with. Or, rather, feed him rope that you can then use after the encounter to choke him in a formal complaint, or hang him in a lawsuit. Once you have some of those arrows in your quiver, you become a walking danger to the cop's personnel file or checking account.

    But, first ya gotta learn your stuff. If you have any questions about what you learn, just post em up.
    You are going to be schooled by a LEO to understand everything that is being posted. A local agency raked me over the coals and when I look back, they taught me so much. I have even thought about writing a thank you letter to said department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    It sure is a lot to process at once. Especially considering I'm going from a mindset of "I want/need to do this but just can't afford to right now" to "I'm actually starting the process of doing this and there are so many things that could happen in any number of situations".
    Totally understandable.

    Permit me to mention something that I hope helps.

    Many of us veterans had to learn this stuff the hard way. Hashing out tactics on this forum. Finding a new (to us) court opinion, here and there, and then having to adjust tactics to suit. Every negative LEO encounter that got posted got analyzed (and criticized) in detail. Then along would come some new guy who would supply another piece of the puzzle. More hashing over tactics would then occur.

    When you follow that link to my long post full of legal references, you are looking at the compiled experience of 2-3 years work learning this stuff.

    Here is the point that I hope helps with the feeling that there is so much to learn. You are right. There is a fair amount to absorb. But, its been compiled for you. You get to miss out on all the hashing back and forth to figure out how to do it. You don't have to spend two years learning it all by figuring it out from legal references and figuring it out by discussing it with others for two years. We have carefully tried to preserve enough of the trail so others can come on board and get up to speed without having to spend evenings for a couple years sorting it out.

    Yes, we had a lot of fun--and frustration--doing it, so you owe us nothing. Not even thanks. Doing it was its own reward for most of us.

    We've already discarded the dead ends, and sifted out the unimportant and inapplicable stuff so others wouldn't have to do that themselves. You only have the learning part, you get to skip the rest of the development.

    Also, you don't have to learn everything at once before you OC. It is a rising scale of knowledge. You can get by initially on just a few things:

    1) Know federal, state, and local gun laws.
    2) Don't argue if asked to leave private property.
    3) Carry a voice-recorder if you can afford one. VA is a one-party consent state.* Meaning only one person who is a party to the conversation has to consent to the recording. In this case, you.
    4) Comply with police orders while politely verbally refusing consent.
    5) Don't talk to police. Invoke the right to silence. And then actually shut up and stay shutted up.
    6) Never consent to a police search.
    7) Ask police if you are free to go. If you are, leave.
    8) Always be polite. Especially during a police encounter.

    Almost everything else is an expansion on these points somehow, someway.

    The error would be to say to oneself, "Well this little bit is all I need to know." Then stop reading up on it. Then have a negative police encounter. Nobody has ever said, "I'm glad I wasn't fully knowledgeable when that punk cop got in my face."

    By the way, one very common mistake, we hear it way too often: "I didn't think I'd need my voice-recorder." Nobody ever said, "I'm glad I left my voice-recorder at home".


    *VA wire-tapping statute 19.2-62.B.2:

    It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception. (emphasis added by Citizen)

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+19.2-62
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-17-2010 at 02:51 AM.

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    Thanks for being so helpful regarding the topic I've started, even though you said it wasn't owed. I already knew points 2 through 8 of your list but, again, thanks for being so helpful and pointing them out. I'll have to wait on the voice recorder, probably. That is unless I can find one for relatively cheap. I never talk to cops because, as I previously mentioned, I don't trust them.

    One thing regarding state laws. Is it state parks or state forests that can be carried in, or both? Openly or concealed, I mean. I think something was recently passed that changed something regarding a carry prohibition in one or the other. I'm also glad the restaurant that serves alcohol for on premise consumption ban was overturned and...something to do with carrying in the glove box? I believe we can also carry in national parks but not national forests? Do you know where I can find federal firearms laws? I'll try to read up on some of this this weekend because I'll be making "the purchase" in about 3 weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    SNIP Thanks for being so helpful regarding the topic...(state and fed gun laws questions)
    You're quite welcome.

    My specialty is 4th and 5th Amendment case law aka court opinions. Others will have to weigh in on the gun laws and park regulations. I know the laws but cannot direct you to the correct source--statute, regulation--for you to read it yourself. Forum Rule #5 requires that I give you the name or number of case, statute, or regulation. I'm just not familiar enough with them to supply the statute or regulation number, nor where to find them.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-17-2010 at 03:20 AM.

  20. #20
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    This should help with state parks et al. Supposedly changes are in the works... but I'm not holding my breath.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=national+park
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Price of small digital recorder that can be easily downloaded to your computer: $40.
    Price of overzealous LEO "splainin himself" in court about how he violated your (list Constitutional Rights violated here) rights: PRICELESS

    P.S. Regents University is right here in Virginia Beach. They have some pretty good programs.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  22. #22
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    I've already decided I'll never instruct an officer on how to remove my firearm from my person. That could be, in my opinion, construed as consent. I also won't answer questions, at least irrelevant ones, w/o a lawyer present. I have a very real distrust of police and am pleasantly shocked when I am respected by one of them. Are police protected by a law/statute if they take your firearm w/o your consent? To me, that seems a blatant violation of the 4th amendment right to be secure.
    It gets better. Often after they take your firearm they go back to their car, leaving you standing defenseless on the sidewalk. They will the "run the numbers of your firearm and enter your guns serial number. They will enter the gun info, including serial # into their special police database.

    Use electrical tape to cover the serial number. Then they cannot remove the serial number without really violating the 4th A.

    They often also search your wallet to find your ID. Remember what they can search for prior to arrest is only an external weapons pat down, but that does not stop them from taking your ID and running your name and address for warrants.

    Yeah, have a plan. Don't give police the opportunity to collect your personal or gun information.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  23. #23
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    Did somebody change the name of this thread? I originally had it as "legal requirement question" or something similar.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrt6812 View Post
    Did somebody change the name of this thread? I originally had it as "legal requirement question" or something similar.
    Probably the board admin or a mod.. I have seen that before.. Many new posters will say as the subject line "Dinner This Saturday" and thats it... well this Saturday is not "THIS" saturday after it has past.. so the mod might change it to "Dinner this Saturday /xx/xx/xx at Dennys" etc. It makes it easier to find in the search and it makes it easier for readers. So in you example.. if it said "legal requirement question" or something similar and now it reads "legal requirement to hand over firearm to police if requested" explains the question better for those of us that read the headlines to see if its a thread we want to read. It also helps the OCDO search engine as well as the web crawlers.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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  25. #25
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    oh ok, I was confused a little bit.

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