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Thread: Slight concern with my security company (firearm related)

  1. #1
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    Slight concern with my security company (firearm related)

    I was discussing this with one of the QA managers tonight. We were on the issue about armed guard licenses, and he mentioned that all security officers who are licensed as an armed guard are responsible for providing their own firearm. I said, "oh, is the company allowed to do that, by law?" I asked, because I know RCW 18.170.050 states:

    " (2) All firearms carried by armed private security guards in the performance of their duties must be owned or leased by the employer and, if required by law, must be registered with the proper government agency."

    He said that the company actually leases your firearm from YOU for a dollar a year. He said that is their way to get around the law. So the company leases the firearm from the employee? Doesn't the law state that all firearms must be leased BY the employer, not TO the employer?

    It makes me a bit uneasy. When I get my armed certification and license, I don't want to end up being fined and charged with an offense.

    What does this sound like to you?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    IANAL, love that acronym, The employer is leasing the firearm therefore it is being leased by the employer

  3. #3
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    It appears to be with in the law as read in the RCW but this is a pretty cheeses way for a company to conduct business.
    I do not know if there is better security companies around your area but I would look into it.
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    Regular Member Stryker's Avatar
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    This is far from my area of expertise, but I would prefer the OP's situation and be able to choose a firearm of my liking vs being issued an unfamiliar model or possibly questionable caliber. The terms of the lease certainly do make the employer look bad. They may be following the letter of the law by leasing from their employees, but it doesn't pass my smell test.


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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Aaron, when I worked Armed security they leased my gun from me and issued it to me.. Sounded kind of weird, but it was the norm. That's also the only gun you are allowed to carry / use while in uniform, and it's also the gun you must qualify with.

    When I switched from a Ruger P89 to my USP 40, I had to re-qualify and add my HK to the lease for an additional $1. Then I was free to carry both.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryker View Post
    I would prefer the OP's situation and be able to choose a firearm of my liking vs being issued an unfamiliar model or possibly questionable caliber.
    +1

    Can you imagine what a company owned, maintained gun would look like?

    Here is your .38 service revolver. We scraped off as much rust as we could. Don't load the 3rd chamber because it's cracked. The rear site is broken, but we don't expect you'll need to use it...

    Ever looked closely at the guns in a rental case at the range?

    Eeeeesh... let me carry mine PLEASE?

    Though $1/year is pretty lame...

  7. #7
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    This is not an uncommon practice. Trucking companies lease trucks from their owners which then drive the truck for them. Car Dealerships and Repair shops often lease the mechanics tools and them let him use them while working for them in order to circumvent labor laws that require premium pay unless the employer provides the tools.

    This is the day and age of "Leasing" rather than owning for businesses. There are tax advantages and in the case of a Security Company, they don't have to go out and buy a bunch of firearms that the employees don't like. A firearm that is owned by the employee and leased by the company will be far better maintained than one they might "issue". Loss and theft is not an issue either. They still maintain some control over what is carried as they can refuse to lease the firearm if it doesn't meet their standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    This is not an uncommon practice. Trucking companies lease trucks from their owners which then drive the truck for them. Car Dealerships and Repair shops often lease the mechanics tools and them let him use them while working for them in order to circumvent labor laws that require premium pay unless the employer provides the tools.

    This is the day and age of "Leasing" rather than owning for businesses. There are tax advantages and in the case of a Security Company, they don't have to go out and buy a bunch of firearms that the employees don't like. A firearm that is owned by the employee and leased by the company will be far better maintained than one they might "issue". Loss and theft is not an issue either. They still maintain some control over what is carried as they can refuse to lease the firearm if it doesn't meet their standards.

    What about the bullets? Do they say what kind you can use? Who pays for them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    What about the bullets? Do they say what kind you can use? Who pays for them?
    I have to buy my own ammo.

  10. #10
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    Doesn't the law state that all firearms must be leased BY the employer, not TO the employer?
    Seriously?

    You're saying the same thing, you're just using different letters. Pretty commom in the King's English.

  11. #11
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    tricky isn't it

    Man talk about getting around the law (legally that is).

    Yes, there are benefits to the company and to you. As mentioned it follows the "law" and it does several things for you.

    1) it's your firearm - you chose it (so I'm assuming you like it)
    2) you are familiar with the firearm - it fits your hand
    3) you will be more apt to take care of it and make sure it's functional

    For companies (agencies):
    Firearm maintance is a big deal for agencies that issue. You have to look at getting a group buy to get the services discounts, etc Maybe hire or assign an armour to keep them up, maintenance, etc. Not one gun will fit everyone's hands and I'm sure you'll run into several people who dislike their "issued" firearm for whatever reason.

    Interesting how it's really done out there....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Seriously?

    You're saying the same thing, you're just using different letters. Pretty commom in the King's English.
    Just trying to be safe. The last thing I want to do is end up getting fined due to some technicality. It wouldn't be the first time a security agency put one of their employees at risk. I know of some agencies that don't even bother licensing their security officers, and in that case, both the agency and the employee can be fined.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Be interesting to see the lease agreement. I would add a penalty payment if the round count was higher than the national average.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    I think I might still have my lease agreement somewhere. I saved all my paperwork from that job because we were involved in a lot of situations where my report could come in handy many years later.

    Of course, that was 12 years ago, so I am pretty sure all statute of limitations have long expired..

  15. #15
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    You should tell them that you won't lease it to them for less than $1.50. You know, due to inflation. LOL
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  16. #16
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Is there a cleaning deposit?
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  17. #17
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Pretty commom in the King's English.

    It's the Queen's English right now, and has been for quite some time.

  18. #18
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    You've not heard of The King's English? The book? The book's the same, no matter who's on the throne.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by oldkim View Post
    oldkim
    tricky isn't it

    Man talk about getting around the law (legally that is).

    Yes, there are benefits to the company and to you. As mentioned it follows the "law" and it does several things for you.

    It is not a matter of getting around the law. This method is not only fully endorsed by WA CJTC, but recent changes in the law make this the preferred method. I was actually on the phone with Rochelle at CJTC this morning, and I confirmed with Desiree at WA DOL.

    The change is this:

    In the past, a person was certified for a TYPE of weapon, such as a Glock 22. That would mean that the individual could use ANY firearm of the make and model with which they qualified.

    This is not longer the case.

    While there is no place on the current CJTC forms to identify the serial number of the weapon used for qualification, they have put out a policy with their instructors that a person use the ACTUAL weapon that they will have on the job. (I sort of get this... try shooting well before the gun is broke in).

    These new rules make it such that the easiest way to work in this state is to have a single weapon with which you qualify, and to have a lease agreement with each company, which includes the clause that the firearm (serial number included) may be used while employed by other entities, but that while doing so it is covered under that entities insurance. This would also set a precedent for a clause which allows for personal use and carry, with the understanding that it will not be covered by company insurance. A third clause could state that the company will be notified of any other leases with other firms.


    Justin R. Boyett, CPO
    Chief Administrative Officer
    Praetorian Protection Corp.
    Last edited by Praetorian.Protection; 06-29-2017 at 09:15 PM.

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