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Thread: Media insenting a new Law against firearms because of the recent LEo incident

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Media insenting a new Law against firearms because of the recent LEo incident

    http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in...away-from-kids

    September 15, 2010 - Early Wednesday morning the 3-year-old son of a Clark County Sheriff's deputy accidentally shot himself and died, and the issue has been raised that no law exists in Washington State requiring adults to lock up their firearms, even when children reside in or visit their homes.

    The Legal Community Against Violence (LCAV) issued a report in 2008 on Child Access Prevention.

    According to the report, researchers have found that millions of children in the United States live in homes with easily accessible guns.

    The report also indicated that Child Access Prevention (CAP) laws impose criminal liability on adults who negligently leave firearms accessible to children or otherwise allow children access to firearms. Currently 27 states have such laws in place - Washington is not one of them.

    What do you think? Should Washington State pass Child Access Prevention laws to protect children by making adults criminally liable if they leave firearms accessible to children? Scroll down to leave your comment.

    Clark County Sheriff’s office policy

    Clark County Sheriff’s Office Lieutenant Chad Rothenberger told Examiner.com Wednesday, “We do have a policy in place for employees’ service weapons, but the Sheriff has no authority on how employees store their personal weapons. There are no laws about securing personally owned weapons in Washington State.”

    According to the Clark County Sheriff’s Office press release issued Wednesday, the Sheriff’s Office firearms storage policy recognizes the Constitutional right of citizens to keep and maintain firearms.

    Policy mandates the safe storage of department issued weapons, and encourages employees to use safe storage techniques for any personally owned firearms as well.

    The 3-year-old child, whose father is a deputy for the Clark County Sheriff's Department, shot himself with his father's personal gun, not his service weapon.

    Lt. Rothenberger agreed that personally, and professionally, it’s a good idea to secure all firearms, especially in a home where children reside or visit. “When my kids were growing up I worried about it. All of my firearms were locked up,” he said.

    The press release also stated, “This event also emphasizes the risk inherent with firearms and we encourage anyone who possesses a firearm to ensure that it is safely secured.”

    Lt. Rothenberger said that often deputies responding to calls find loaded weapons in homes, even when children reside in the homes.

    Hot issue

    Laws dictating how individuals should store firearms in their own homes is, and has been, a hot issue.

    No amount of research, report-writing, or arguing about this issue is going to change the fact that too many children are dying because adults fail to use common sense and repeatedly leave loaded guns where children and teens can access them.

    A 2000 study of firearm storage patterns in U.S. homes found that “[o]f the homes with children and firearms, 55% were reported to have one or more firearms in an unlocked place,” and 43% reported keeping guns without a trigger lock in an unlocked place.

    When you think about that, think about a toddler, school-aged child, or teen living in, or visiting a home with a loaded gun lying around where they can easily access it. It happens every day.

    Would you want your child or grandchild going to play at someone’s house where they could get a hold of a loaded weapon, potentially shooting and killing themselves or someone else?

    Child Access Prevention laws prove effective

    Laws that impose criminal liability on adults who negligently leave firearms accessible to children or otherwise allow children access to firearms have proven effective in reducing the number of children and teens who die or kill others with firearms.

    The LCAV report stated a study found that more than 75% of the guns used in youth suicide attempts and unintentional injuries were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend. At least two studies have found that the risk of suicide increases in homes where guns are kept loaded and/or unlocked.

    A 2005 study found that the practice of keeping firearms locked, unloaded, and storing ammunition in a locked location separate from firearms serves as a protective measure to reduce youth suicide and unintentional injury in homes with children and teenagers where guns are stored.

    In October 2000 the U.S. Secret Service published a study of 37 school shootings in 26 states. That study found that in more than 65% of the cases, the attacker got the gun from his or her own home or that of a relative.

    Children are curious and guns are intriguing. Especially if they’ve never seen one before or if they know they’re not supposed to touch them.

    If a teen is experiencing depression, or a life situation that is extremely difficult for them to cope with, finding a gun could be the simple way for them to end it all, without having time to think through their actions. Once they pull the trigger it’s too late.

    States with Child Access Prevention Laws:

    States with child access prevention laws include California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Wisconsin.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    How many laws do we already have on the books that could be applied to any negligence in cases such as this?

    How many that cover reckless endangerment? Child Abuse?

    Rather than run out and pass another law, just use those already on the books that apply.

    As for another state law that would require securing firearms, there is already a Federal Law that requires trigger locks to be provided at the time one purchases a handgun. More laws won't make people use them.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    How many laws do we already have on the books that could be applied to any negligence in cases such as this?

    How many that cover reckless endangerment? Child Abuse?

    Rather than run out and pass another law, just use those already on the books that apply.

    As for another state law that would require securing firearms, there is already a Federal Law that requires trigger locks to be provided at the time one purchases a handgun. More laws won't make people use them.
    +1
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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Sounds like another attempt at infringing on my rights.

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    How many of these children are gang bangers?

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    Regular Member Bob Warden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    How many of these children are gang bangers?
    Just a wild guess, but I doubt the 3-yr-old child of the cop was a gang-banger...
    Meet the new boss; same as the old boss. -The Who

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Warden View Post
    Just a wild guess, but I doubt the 3-yr-old child of the cop was a gang-banger...
    It goes without saying. The aim, of course, of my question was in the 'children and gun deaths' arena where they don't even reserach that sector...after all they are all 'children'. Techinally true, but a dishonest portraya.l

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    How's this for a new law: NO privately owned firearms for LEO. Duty firearms must be checked in before leaving work.

    This incident just proved that can't handle that responsibility.

    (as long as we're leaping to irrational conclusions)
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 09-16-2010 at 02:56 PM.

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    Regular Member Mech's Avatar
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    I once had a serious discussion with someone about the "dangers" of having firearms at home. The opposing view was, if you want to be safe, then lock up your guns, but then if your guns are locked when you need them in a hurry, then you can't get to them since they're locked away so they're not as useful, so might as well not have any guns at all (weird reasoning, I know).

    So I countered: well, if you're so afraid of your children getting their hands on your primary defense tool (usually a pistol), then DONT lock it in your safe, DONT leave it lying around; instead, STRAP it to yourself, either OC'ing or CC'ing; then, no one can get to it easily (besides you yourself), your kids won't "accidentally" pick up your gun and play with it. and it will be there when you DO need it. Problem solved!

    They didn't know what to say after that (HA!) so instead they launched into the whole "only bad guys and cops should have guns" BS, in which case I stopped caring XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    I once had a serious discussion with someone about the "dangers" of having firearms at home. The opposing view was, if you want to be safe, then lock up your guns, but then if your guns are locked when you need them in a hurry, then you can't get to them since they're locked away so they're not as useful, so might as well not have any guns at all (weird reasoning, I know).

    So I countered: well, if you're so afraid of your children getting their hands on your primary defense tool (usually a pistol), then DONT lock it in your safe, DONT leave it lying around; instead, STRAP it to yourself, either OC'ing or CC'ing; then, no one can get to it easily (besides you yourself), your kids won't "accidentally" pick up your gun and play with it. and it will be there when you DO need it. Problem solved!

    They didn't know what to say after that (HA!) so instead they launched into the whole "only bad guys and cops should have guns" BS, in which case I stopped caring XD

    oooohhhhh...good one!

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    Regular Member mtlhdtodd's Avatar
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    Ahh the rush to make the nanny state bigger.

    If one law doesn't stop something bad from happening, pass ten more and that will do the trick. ----------------- 'til the next time

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    Insenting?

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Insenting?
    Incenting/Incentivize * To give incentive to do something... I spelled it wrong.. thanks for noticing....

    Joe~

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    You left out:

    While riding on the back of a giraffe.

    Joe~

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabbitone View Post
    Huh, this got me looking up the TX law. The site I found was http://www.lcav.org/states/texas.asp...cessprevention .

    Thought I'd share this snip
    IANAL, does this last point seem odd to anyone else? I guess allowing children to work on the farm and have a gun?
    Actually it does make sense. I grew up on a farm and there are many times that one "younger than 17" might have to legitimately use a firearm. I shot predators caught in traps set around our chicken house, mostly skunks. I used a .22 to "dispatch" downed or sick animals. Likewise for animals about to be butchered. Shot feral cats that ate our pheasants and dogs that chased our sheep. Then there were rats that liked to hang out in the barn. .22's didn't make too big a hole in the floor but did a good job on the rats. Most of this started happening about the time I turned 9 and it was normal for all the farms in our area.

    No, I don't find it unusual for Texas Law to allow for children under 17, involved in an agricultural operation, to be able to have firearms available. Whole different world than in the city.

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    I co-wrote the CCSO policy on firearms storage and specifically wrote the language so that deputies, as private citizens, still had their 2nd amendment rights protected. Speaking only for myself, and certainly not for the agency, I'm not in favor of any laws/policies restricting personal firearm rights. God bless the Owens family who need our thoughts and prayers.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cooke View Post
    I co-wrote the CCSO policy on firearms storage and specifically wrote the language so that deputies, as private citizens, still had their 2nd amendment rights protected. Speaking only for myself, and certainly not for the agency, I'm not in favor of any laws/policies restricting personal firearm rights. God bless the Owens family who need our thoughts and prayers.
    Mike,

    Say my respects to the Owens (I do not know them). I had asked others to do as well (Orr).

    Thank you.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabbitone View Post
    Huh, this got me looking up the TX law. The site I found was http://www.lcav.org/states/texas.asp...cessprevention .

    Thought I'd share this snip
    IANAL, does this last point seem odd to anyone else? I guess allowing children to work on the farm and have a gun?


    Shhhh, they can also get a 'farm license' I bet. That would let someone under 16 years of age drive a vehicle on the road (Oh noze!).

    When I was a kid you could get one in WA too (unsure about now).

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Absolutely not!!!!
    I wrote an essay about children and firearms that I am fairly proud of, of course no newspapers or magazines would publish it. Children are about a %1000 more likely to die from abuse or neglect at the hands of their own parents. And this is those who die!!!!! Not even counting the ones that survive.

    Drowning, car accidents, their parents blah blah cause more deaths to children under 12 than firearms which are actually a drop in the bucket relatively speaking.

    And in no way do I want to demean the tragedy of this youngsters death. But more laws are not the answer.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Absolutely not!!!!
    I wrote an essay about children and firearms that I am fairly proud of, of course no newspapers or magazines would publish it. Children are about a %1000 more likely to die from abuse or neglect at the hands of their own parents. And this is those who die!!!!! Not even counting the ones that survive.

    Drowning, car accidents, their parents blah blah cause more deaths to children under 12 than firearms which are actually a drop in the bucket relatively speaking.

    And in no way do I want to demean the tragedy of this youngsters death. But more laws are not the answer.
    And that's exactly why, upon reading about this incident, my first thought was the Dad killed his kid intentionally.

    I'm not saying that did happen, just that based on abuse and DV stats (which run above average for LEO iirc) I would not be surprised.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    And that's exactly why, upon reading about this incident, my first thought was the Dad killed his kid intentionally.

    I'm not saying that did happen, just that based on abuse and DV stats (which run above average for LEO iirc) I would not be surprised.
    Yea I always look at these cases with suspect. Like the one a few months ago down south were a 3 yr. old, watched by the mother, supposedly grabbed a revolver off the table and shot herself in the stomach, because she thought it was a nintendo gun. Even 3 year olds know the long end goes away from them. Plus how many pounds of pressure would she have to use? And etc. too many questions made is suspect in my mind.

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    Soooo.... In order to PREVENT the accidental death of a child, we're going to establish penalties which can't be acted upon until AFTER THE CHILD IS DEAD?

    Yeah... that's a brillian solution.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3/325 View Post
    Soooo.... In order to PREVENT the accidental death of a child, we're going to establish penalties which can't be acted upon until AFTER THE CHILD IS DEAD?

    Yeah... that's a brillian solution.
    Yep so you just tragically lost a loved one in an accident, and the solution is to pile on your misery that'll teach you. Where do they breed these politicians.

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    Regular Member Genken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    <Snip> Would you want your child or grandchild going to play at someone’s house where they could get a hold of a loaded weapon, potentially shooting and killing themselves or someone else?

    <Snip>

    Children are curious and guns are intriguing. Especially if they’ve never seen one before or if they know they’re not supposed to touch them.
    First part: Possibly yes. I have started the process of training him on the ripe age of 6 that firearms ARE NOT toys. I've had him try to rack the slide on my and my wife's pistols(both cleared), and he couldn't move either a single millimeter. And my wife's is easy to rack. I've started teaching him that firearms are not toys, they are dangerous if used improperly, and that he can handle mine or my wife's firearms any time he wants, as long as he asks us first. I've told him that we would both be more than happy to let him handle it, teach him anything, as well as do anything firearms related if he asks. We tell him he can not touch them if he doesn't ask us. That's why when I was down in Texas on leave, I kept my pistol on Amber status(mag in well, chamber clear) the whole time in the house. I know for a fact he can not rack the slide, so I had no worries about any potential dangers. When the neighbor's kid was at the house(who was 9), I grabbed it up and kept it with me while he was there. His mother knows that my wife and I both own guns, but I'm at least responsible enough to keep it out of a child's reach who I feel I can not trust. My son has never given me or my wife a reason not to trust him. And for 6 years old, I trust him alot. If he's at someone else's house, I trust him not to mess with their firearms without asking them. However, I don't trust other people's kids, regardless.

    Second part: That is why you teach them about firearms as soon as you bring one into the home. It wasn't long after I landed in El Paso, and got to the hotel room that I unlocked my pistol and started teaching him. I let him handle it, attempt to rack the slide, and constantly, like every other day, my wife an I would quiz him on what I taught him about firearms. Mainly, don't touch them, but he wont ever be denied if he asks us if he can handle them/get more training/etc. He always answered right, and he's never messed with either my wife's or my pistols.

    So essentially, I trust him, just not other children.

    And another thing: Why would you keep a firearm in the house with children, where they could access it, in condition red/one? That is negligent. Even here, I clear it and put it in Amber before I put it in my box at my desk.
    It ain't easy in the Tweezy.

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    C'mon you people… don't you understand?? It has to be a good law!

    Even if is saves just one person from second hand smoke, one salmon, one kangaroo rat, oops... sorry keep getting my feel good laws confused.. saves just one child it has to worth the cost!

    Doesn't it??

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