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Thread: Note on concealed versus open carry , John R. Lott, Jr.

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    Note on concealed versus open carry , John R. Lott, Jr.

    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/0...rry.html#links

    Quote Originally Posted by John R. Lott
    I have no problem with people openly carrying their guns, but there are crime deterrent benefits from concealed carry that you definitely don't get from open carry. Here is one example. As Israel has learned the hard way, simply putting armed police and military on the streets didn't stop terrorist attacks. Even if you have openly armed police or military on a bus, the terrorist has the option to either wait for them to leave the scene or to kill them first. With CCW, the attacker doesn't know who is able to defend themselves and he doesn't know whom to attack first.
    His e-mail address is on his page.

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    why should those who choose to remain unarmed gain benefit of those who take the responsibility to be armed? There is a better solution: a FULLY armed society.

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    Terrorists are a lot more willing to die than the average criminal we will meet here.

    Deterrence might not work against terrorists in Israel, but it works pretty danged well against cowardly BGs here.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Terrorists are a lot more willing to die than the average criminal we will meet here.

    Deterrence might not work against terrorists in Israel, but it works pretty danged well against cowardly BGs here.
    Plus 1.

    Think about it, Israeli's army are going to be the target of terrorists who hate Israeli's army and government.

    BG's here are looking for easy targets/prey.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    That is a stupid comment. How the hell can you compare a suicide bomber to a common criminal?

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    Regular Member SaintJacque's Avatar
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    I support open carry but he's right about the tactical advantage of CCing. I support OC as an advocacy and social tool, not necessarily as the most effective self defense means (although it is still pretty damn effective).

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    Regular Member Snakemathis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJacque View Post
    I support open carry but he's right about the tactical advantage of CCing. I support OC as an advocacy and social tool, not necessarily as the most effective self defense means (although it is still pretty damn effective).
    Leave...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakemathis View Post
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    That's a great sentiment, anyone with whom you disagree must leave?

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    Regular Member MatieA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJacque View Post
    I support open carry but he's right about the tactical advantage of CCing. I support OC as an advocacy and social tool, not necessarily as the most effective self defense means (although it is still pretty damn effective).
    No one has yet been able to explain to me where there is any tactical advantage to conceal carrying. I conceal carry every time I go to Denver, CO because I have to but it is IMHO uncomfortable and awkward, and there is no way I'm going to get it out in any hurry, and the whole time I'm hoping/praying that I don't have to try to quickly draw it.
    Conceal carry at least ensures that you have a gun with you if needed, but as far as any tactical advantage?? I just don't see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatieA View Post
    No one has yet been able to explain to me where there is any tactical advantage to conceal carrying. I conceal carry every time I go to Denver, CO because I have to but it is IMHO uncomfortable and awkward, and there is no way I'm going to get it out in any hurry, and the whole time I'm hoping/praying that I don't have to try to quickly draw it.
    Conceal carry at least ensures that you have a gun with you if needed, but as far as any tactical advantage?? I just don't see it.
    shooting someone in the back after the mugger is walking away from what he thought was an unarmed victim?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    shooting someone in the back after the mugger is walking away from what he thought was an unarmed victim?
    That's highly illegal, except in the comparatively rare hostage situation where you know he's just looking out the door at police...

    As for Lott's comments comparing terrorists and criminals, absolutely no way. Nor will CC ever be a "deterrent" until both the numbers go way up (like half of the general populace) AND the BG's are fully aware of AND respect this fact (fat chance on any one of the three). OC is both a deterrent and enjoys the tactical advantage of being the most rapid draw.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    The question was not about legal or illegal options, just tactical advantage. Its all I could think, but perhaps I should have noted its illegality. And perhaps I shouldn't post while watching Death Wish I => IV...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatieA View Post
    No one has yet been able to explain to me where there is any tactical advantage to conceal carrying. I conceal carry every time I go to Denver, CO because I have to but it is IMHO uncomfortable and awkward, and there is no way I'm going to get it out in any hurry, and the whole time I'm hoping/praying that I don't have to try to quickly draw it.
    Conceal carry at least ensures that you have a gun with you if needed, but as far as any tactical advantage?? I just don't see it.

    Agreed in the very least it hinders a tactical advantage, police and military carry them openly for obvious reason. I compare permission slip holders to the (who look down on open carry) likes of those who say they are Christians in church or around like minded people, yet around people who may not agree with their Christian views. They hide their beliefs like a coward because it might cause a problem. Many, who have permission slip to carry that talk down open carry, do it not because they are right about it being more "tactical" or ccw is a better option. Simply they are ashamed of being gun owners, they are afraid that people, possible friends may think differentially of them. I am proud to be a gun owner and will say what I think and open carry my weapons proudly, I could care less if people disagree with my views.

    I refuse to be a ashamed gun owner who hides behind a permission slip from politicians and claim any other way to carry is foolish and not tactical. For the record I a have a ccw permit but rarely ever use it. Also there is nothing tactical about having to pull a weapon out not ready to stop a robbery, rape ext. Verses me carrying openly that deters most idiots from trying anything, yet if they are dumb enough to try it I will be ready to go, none of this tossing my shirt back and hoping the bad guy/s don't shoot me while trying to pull it out from cover. I refuse to be around any person who is ashamed of being a gun owner.
    Last edited by zack991; 09-17-2010 at 07:17 PM.

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    I was a little sad to see this sentiment yesterday on Dr. Lott's blog, as I respect the work he's done; but I can understand his perspective. He's used to making his decisions on quanitfiable data. He took data from every county (or parish as in Louisiana) and compared data regarding crime and the issuance of concealed carry permits. He found a correlation between more gun permits and lower crime rates.

    Since it's a near impossibility to quantify the benefits of OC as easily - remember there are generally no permits required, so there's no ready database - he cannot make a similar logical comparison.

    Still, he's not against OC, just not conviced of its effectiveness against criminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD-GEM View Post
    I was a little sad to see this sentiment yesterday on Dr. Lott's blog, as I respect the work he's done; but I can understand his perspective.

    ...

    Still, he's not against OC, just not conviced of its effectiveness against criminals.
    I hear you, and he's mentioned in Research on the Efficacy of Concealed Carry. I think the last two points are the most salient.

    Back to Mr. Lott, he's done a lot of fine work. It's just that, like the rest of us, he makes mistakes.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    No one has to leave for having a different opinion. Just keep the personal attacks down.

    Personal I don't believe in the "tactical advantage" to me that indicates someone who perhaps instead of carrying for a detterent effect are carrying for a chance to use it, but I don't care just carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    No one has to leave for having a different opinion. Just keep the personal attacks down.
    You're confusing political humor with a violation of forum policy. I believe most newspapers still run political satire cartoons, including the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post and Times, the New York Times, and many others, so if you're rusty on the topic, perhaps it's time for a refresher.

    Political satire is the art of using irony and humor to portray the policies, statements, or beliefs of public figures in the absurd, as they sometimes are. Do you really think I was suggesting moving them to the U.K., or very absurdly, to Antarctica?

    I spent 20+ years in the military defending our nation's Constitution and our interests worldwide, to the death if necessary (some of my friends did make that ultimate sacrifice), to protect the rights of all Americans, regardless of their beliefs.

    All satire aside, if I found myself in the company of Jim Brady and an intruder walked in on us, guns blazing, I either stop him or die trying, the same as if I were in the company of anyone else.

    That's the truth. ^^^

    I would hope, however, that I would have something more substantial on my person with which to defend myself than my fists.

    That's a combination of humor and irony. ^^^

    I had a third example I was going to use, but it's immaterial if you're not yet up to speed on political satire.

    So please, if you will, let's not refer to something as a "personal attack" when it is most certainly not one.
    Last edited by since9; 09-17-2010 at 11:33 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    He was talking about this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snakemathis View Post
    Leave...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Thanks Jackhouse you beat me to it.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD-GEM View Post
    I was a little sad to see this sentiment yesterday on Dr. Lott's blog, as I respect the work he's done; but I can understand his perspective. He's used to making his decisions on quanitfiable data. He took data from every county (or parish as in Louisiana) and compared data regarding crime and the issuance of concealed carry permits. He found a correlation between more gun permits and lower crime rates.

    Since it's a near impossibility to quantify the benefits of OC as easily - remember there are generally no permits required, so there's no ready database - he cannot make a similar logical comparison.

    Still, he's not against OC, just not conviced of its effectiveness against criminals.
    That's an interesting point. The simple lack of statistics make it hard to prove it works, although in my mind the simple lack of statistics proves it works

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    ROFLMAO at CC buzzwords

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJacque View Post
    I support open carry but he's right about the tactical advantage of CCing. I support OC as an advocacy and social tool, not necessarily as the most effective self defense means (although it is still pretty damn effective).

    I love it when you guys say stupid things like this. Tactical advantage? Element of surprise?

    Dude! We're about DETERRING CRIME. We don't WANT to have to shoot anyone. Your buzzwords make you sound bloodthirsty and aggressive.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    I've read John Lott's article and found it rather logical. After running a thought process through my brain, it became clear. CC might be able to reduce more crime than OC. OCing will more likely deter crime in one area for how ever long you are there. Which will send the criminal to find a softer target.

    Let's say you're CCing. A criminal comes in and attempts to rob the place. The CCer will engage and hopefully kill the criminal. The criminal will no longer be able to commit more crimes in the future.

    There is one thing that OC does very well that CC does not. OC reduces contact between you and criminals. First and fore most on my mind is the safety of my family. So, reducing contact with criminals is a lot safer for my family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I love it when you guys say stupid things like this. Tactical advantage? Element of surprise?

    Dude! We're about DETERRING CRIME. We don't WANT to have to shoot anyone. Your buzzwords make you sound bloodthirsty and aggressive.
    "We" are about many things. I disagree with SJ on CC providing one tactical advantage in that it affords more of an element of surprise than OC does. I just prefer the tactical value deterrence and ease of access more.

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    Regular Member SaintJacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakemathis View Post
    Leave...
    Thank you, I appreciate the offer. But it's nice and cozy in here so I think I'll stay here for a while.

    In all seriousness I do support OC, and I do it myself sometimes. I've also heard some interesting arguments in this thread about tactical advantages of OC that I hadn't considered. In any case, this is the best message board I've found online on this or any topic, it's contributors really are great.

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    Regular Member SaintJacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    "We" are about many things. I disagree with SJ on CC providing one tactical advantage in that it affords more of an element of surprise than OC does. I just prefer the tactical value deterrence and ease of access more.
    I agree with that analysis, BTW. I hadn't considered the value of deterrence as it relates to OC. I still value OC primarily as a way of effecting cultural change in the perception of firearms and the men and women who carry them. But, that said, consider me educated on the tactical issues.

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