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Madison PD detains and cites OCers tonight.

M

McX

Guest
for the most part it was a good evening, good to see friends, and make new ones, food was good, kinda chilly outside though.
 

Wisconsin Carry Inc.

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
155
Location
Onalaska, Wisconsin, USA
The facts as they are know at this time...

Saturday, September 18, 2010

At approximately 7:15PM five (5) individuals, who were sitting in Culvers in Madison, were confronted by EIGHT (8) Madison Police officers.

One of the five(5) individuals immediately called my cellphone (hot-line) number to report that police had arrived. Phone calls were immediately placed by me to the entire WCI executive committee.

The officers immediately DEMANDED identification solely because these individuals were exercising their right to carry. Police CAN request ID, but Wisconsin is NOT a must identify state, you are not required to provide ID unless driving a car or such on the public roadway.

The fact that there were other patrons in the Culvers at the time, but the ONLY individuals the Madison PD demanded ID from were those who were exercising the right to carry, specifically shows a specific targeting (profiling) of these individuals.

During the conversation with Madison PD (transcripts of the various recordings will be coming as the release of these is approved by legal council) one of the individuals asked the LEO, "If I was a felon, would I be OC'ing?" To which the Madison officer responded, "That would be the best way to sneak up on them." When the WCI member suggested that LEO check the ID of EVERY individual in the store, "Why don't you check the ID of that lady over there with the kids? She might be a pedophile." The officer responded, "Pedophiles can be with kids."

That is RIGHT, you read it correctly, you cannot carry a firearm for protection in Madison without ID, but "PEDOPHILES can be with kids," in Madison. (Please call/email the Madison Police Chief and ask for clarification of the STATED MADISON PD policy regarding pedophiles)

Two of the individuals REFUSED to provide identification. While on the phone with the individual who contacted me, I overheard the officer state, "Identify yourself or you will be arrested for obstruction." (My God, I've heard these words before....) The individual specifically stated, "I choose not to identify myself," at which point I heard him say, "I'm arrested," and the phone went dead.

Both individuals who refused to identify themselves were place under arrest and handcuffed. Both immediately stated that they refuse any search or seizure of their person or property. Both were searched and had there wallets seized.

Once the officers had the ID's, the ID's were run, and the individuals were released with all there belongings AND their firearms. However, the Madison PD was kind enough to provide a citation for "obstructing a lawful investigation 5.06(2)" to the individuals who refused to provide ID.
5.06 ASSISTANCE IN MAKING ARREST - LIABILITY FOR RESISTING OR OBSTRUCTING AN
OFFICER.

(1) Whoever, without reasonable excuse, refuses or fails upon command, to aid any person known to him to be a peace officer may be fined not more than one hundred dollars ($100). This section does not apply if under the circumstances the officer was not authorized to command such assistance.

(2) Whoever knowingly resists or obstructs an officer while such officer is doing any act in his official capacity and with lawful authority, may be fined not more than five hundred dollars ($500). In this section:

(a) “Officer” means a peace officer or other public officer or public employee having the
authority by virtue of his office or employment to take another into custody.

(b) “Obstructs” includes without limitation knowingly giving false information to the officer or knowingly placing physical evidence with intent to mislead the officer in the
performance of his or her duty including the service of any summons or civil process.
(Am. by Ord. 9977, 3-14-90)

(3) Whoever hinders, delays or prevents an officer from properly serving or executing any summons or civil process, is civilly liable to the person injured for any actual loss caused thereby and to the officer or his superior for any damages adjudged against either of them by reason thereof.

Even the Madison local municipal code, cited above, does not contain FAILURE TO IDENTIFY as a condition for this citation.

Madison PD's very own "legal updates" http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/documents/Summer2004.pdf explains exactly why refusal to provide ID is not obstruction.

Given the facts as we know them at this time, WCI believes the Madison PD violated not only the rights of those handcuffed, but also of those who were not. "Give me your ID, or I'll do the same to you." Is duress/threat of force, so it was NOT a willing cooperation, but rather coercion, also a violation of law. We also believe that all five of the individuals involved acted within the law.

Wisconsin Carry, Inc (WCI) has contacted the media regarding this issue, and we are submitting FOI requests to get all the information pertaining to this incident, we should have that within a week or so. We will continue to provide updates as approved by legal counsel.

The illegal actions of the Madison PD should in no way discourage any individual from freely exercising their rights, be it Madison or any other city, village, town, county in Wisconsin, rather it should increase our resolve to stand against those who continue to want to remove our freedom.


Carry On
 

Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
1,197
Location
, ,
Wisconsin Carry, Inc (WCI) has contacted the media regarding this issue, and we are submitting FOI requests to get all the information pertaining to this incident, we should have that within a week or so. We will continue to provide updates as approved by legal counsel.

Just a reminder, as media has been contacted, this thread is surely being viewed by law enforcement as well as media.

Madison PD operated outside of the law last night.

This kind of illegal behavior by police needs to be corrected immediately.
 

Canard

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
148
Location
SE, Wisconsin, USA
Disturbing the peace, kidknapping, and theft to name a few of the illegal actions of the Madison police. At least that's what it would be called if you did what they did.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Hold on.... wrong ordinance--- too many Madisons-- will put up the correct one momentarily.

Here's the correct ordinance:

5.06 ASSISTANCE IN MAKING ARREST - LIABILITY FOR RESISTING OR OBSTRUCTING AN
OFFICER.
(1) Whoever, without reasonable excuse, refuses or fails upon command, to aid any person known to
him to be a peace officer may be fined not more than one hundred dollars ($100). This section
does not apply if under the circumstances the officer was not authorized to command such
assistance.
(2) Whoever knowingly resists or obstructs an officer while such officer is doing any act in his
official capacity and with lawful authority, may be fined not more than five hundred dollars
($500). In this section:
(a) “Officer” means a peace officer or other public officer or public employee having the
authority by virtue of his office or employment to take another into custody.
(b) “Obstructs” includes without limitation knowingly giving false information to the officer
or knowingly placing physical evidence with intent to mislead the officer in the
performance of his or her duty including the service of any summons or civil process.
(Am. by Ord. 9977, 3-14-90)
(3) Whoever hinders, delays or prevents an officer from properly serving or executing any summons
or civil process, is civilly liable to the person injured for any actual loss caused thereby and to the
officer or his superior for any damages adjudged against either of them by reason thereof.

Looks like a clear case of "GOTCHA" provided compliments of Madison LEOs.

Education is the key to preserving both one's dignity and wallet.
 

xenophon

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
316
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
The officers were out of line. Sounds like a repeat of Frank and the Racine incident. This will be another "learning" experience, and I hope they (Madison Police) get educated out of this.
 

J.Gleason

Banned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
Disturbing the peace, kidknapping, and theft to name a few of the illegal actions of the Madison police. At least that's what it would be called if you did what they did.

Theft? They were armed. Wouldn't it be armed robbery?
How about:
943.30 Threats to injure or accuse of crime. (1) Whoever,
either verbally or by any written or printed communication,
maliciously threatens to accuse or accuses another of any crime or
offense, or threatens or commits any injury to the person, property,
business, profession, calling or trade, or the profits and income of
any business, profession, calling or trade of another, with intent
thereby to extort money or any pecuniary advantage whatever, or
with intent to compel the person so threatened to do any act against
the person’s will or omit to do any lawful act, is guilty of a Class
H felony.

Or:

943.31 Threats to communicate derogatory information.
Whoever threatens to communicate to anyone information,
whether true or false, which would injure the reputation of the
threatened person or another unless the threatened person transfers
property to a person known not to be entitled to it is guilty of
a Class I felony

Or:

943.32 Robbery. (1) Whoever, with intent to steal, takes
property from the person or presence of the owner by either of the
following means is guilty of a Class E felony:
(a) By using force against the person of the owner with intent
thereby to overcome his or her physical resistance or physical
power of resistance to the taking or carrying away of the property;
or
(b) By threatening the imminent use of force against the person
of the owner or of another who is present with intent thereby to
compel the owner to acquiesce in the taking or carrying away of
the property.
(2) Whoever violates sub. (1) by use or threat of use of a dangerous
weapon, a device or container described under s. 941.26
(4) (a) or any article used or fashioned in a manner to lead the victim
reasonably to believe that it is a dangerous weapon or such a
device or container is guilty of a Class C felony.
(3) In this section “owner” means a person in possession of
property whether the person’s possession is lawful or unlawful.

OH and by the way:
939.63 Penalties; use of a dangerous weapon. (1) If a
person commits a crime while possessing, using or threatening to
use a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment prescribed
by law for that crime may be increased as follows:
(a) The maximum term of imprisonment for a misdemeanor
may be increased by not more than 6 months.
(b) If the maximum term of imprisonment for a felony is more
than 5 years or is a life term, the maximum term of imprisonment
for the felony may be increased by not more than 5 years.
(c) If the maximum term of imprisonment for a felony is more
than 2 years, but not more than 5 years, the maximum term of
imprisonment for the felony may be increased by not more than
4 years.
(d) The maximum term of imprisonment for a felony not specified
in par. (b) or (c) may be increased by not more than 3 years.
(2) The increased penalty provided in this section does not
apply if possessing, using or threatening to use a dangerous
weapon is an essential element of the crime charged.
(3) This section applies only to crimes specified under chs.
939 to 951 and 961.

Just sayin...
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
If the police are going to write a citation for obstructing an officer in the investigation of a crime .... would it be unreasonable to require that there should be a reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is occurring, has recently occurred, or is about to occur?

According to the police, the citation is for obstruction, by not providing the police with identification while they were investigating the crime of not identifying oneself?
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
If the police are going to write a citation for obstructing an officer in the investigation of a crime .... would it be unreasonable to require that there should be a reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is occurring, has recently occurred, or is about to occur?

According to the police, the citation is for obstruction, by not providing the police with identification while they were investigating the crime of not identifying oneself?

It's called harassment under color of law - personal feelings/opinions not in compliance with the law.
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
Madison Police Department Legal update memo dated Summer 2004 and published by Lietenant Victor Wahl.

The following extract is a direct quote from the above memo.

"However, Wisconsin law
currently does not allow officers to arrest citizens simply for
failing to identify themselves."

This is what the WSC case law is on the subject.

The
Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that the obstructing statute
did not apply to a simple failure to provide identity:

"We do not equate the failure to identify oneself with the act
of giving false information…mere silence, standing alone,
is insufficient to constitute obstruction under the statute…
without more than mere silence, there is no obstruction."

Looks to me the Madison PD blew this one.
 

BJA

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
503
Location
SOuth Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
I commend those involved last night, it seems as if all of you thought with a clear head. I hope all of you recieve some sort of compensation for your rights being infringed upon! Seems as if some gestapo goons in police uniforms confronted you last night.

Carry on!
 

Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
1,197
Location
, ,
Does anyone have a link to the article by Kevin Reak (sp?) that was sent to the Wisconsin Police Chiefs in a newsletter that says they should NOT rely on HIBEL?
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I'm guessing the Madison PD never received Van Hollen's memo over a year ago. /sarcasm

I remember another incident with Madison PD a year ago about a guy walking on State Street. I forget who it was though. I can't believe they'd risk another "incident."
 
Last edited:

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
I'm guessing the Madison PD never received Van Hollen's memo over a year ago. /sarcasm

I remember another incident with Madison PD a year ago about a guy walking on State Street. I forget who it was though. I can't believe they'd risk another "incident."

That was Travis Yates. The city dropped the charge against him after dragging it out as long as they could.
 

bnhcomputing

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
1,709
Location
Wisconsin, USA
For those of you planning another Madison get-together.

Please place the hot-line number (608) 792-0669 in your phone. Call it at the first indication that the Madison police intend to continue this illegal harassment.

Audio and video recordings are also helpful.
 

xenophon

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
316
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
They are poking the hornets nest in Madison. All we ask is you not harass lawful conduct. This case is clear harassment.

I feel a Madison trip very soon, and maybe some culver's food.
 
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