since9
Campaign Veteran
Since it appears to be a favorite pasttime to bash the UK's no-gun policy, I'd like to share with you some stats which I found which directly compare the US and UK. This is an excerpt of conversations I'd had with a friend of mine from the UK (not this forum). I am reprinting with his permission, and as per his request, all references to his identity have been removed.
Works for me.
Same here. I'm interested in knowing more about why people feel or believe as they do, while explaining the same to others, if they're at all interested in knowing the same about myself.
Agreed. Here in Colorado, as in many other states, they have what's known as a "castle law," as in "a man's home is his castle, and he has the right to defend it against intrusion, with deadly force, if necessary. I was amazed to learn that California's laws require one to justify (and prove in court) any use of force in self-defense as being necessary given the level of force being used by the intruder. Thus, if an intruder walks in with nothing but his fists, using anything on him other than your own fists can and has been viewed as "excessive" and people have gone to jail for doing so.
I found an outstanding chapter written by Mike McGuire of the UK, published by the Oxford University Press, concerning crime statistics in general. He's concerned with how "data explosions" and changes in the kinds and types of statistics in general make comparing crime rates over time problematic.
Nevertheless, CountryRisk.com has numerous links for comparing countries. Am going through them now to see if there's a source of significant, comparable data.
...Ah, here we go. NationMaster.com has a Crime Statistics by Country section. Instead of my peppering our dialogue with unwanted stats, why don't you have a look yourself and let me know what you think might be meaningful.
I'll include just a few stats below which correspond to the points you raised.
Are knives also forbidden in the UK? For women especially, attempting to defend oneself against an intruder armed with a knife is problematic, particularly if the intruder knows how to use the knife. The amount of training required to successively and consistantly defeat your average knife attack with one's bare hands or a knife requires thousands of hours. As you up the lethality of a weapon (baseball /cricket bat, tire iron), the amount of time drops precipitously.
Murder per capita with firearms stats (from NationMaster.com):
UK: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
US: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
Our's is 27 times greater than yours.
Murder per capita (all types):
UK: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
US: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
The US is 3.0 times greater than the UK
However, that includes by firearms, so subtracting that out:
Murders per capita by means other than firearms:
UK: 0.013038 per 1,000 people
US: 0.014875 per 1,000 people
The US is 14% higher than the UK.
Comparing the non-specific murder rates with the ones specifically for "by firearms" and "by means other than firearms," there's some stats we can readily discern:
1. The murder rate in the US is 3 times greater than it is in the UK.
2. The murder rate by firearms in the US is 27 times greater than it is in the UK.
3. The murder rate by means other than firearms is on par (slightly higher).
The conclusion we can draw from this is that the difference between the murder rates in the US and the UK is due largely to firearms. If so, we should see this reflected in a nearly identical rate of assaults per capita between the US and the UK:
Assaults per capita:
UK: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
US: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
Yep - we're just 1.4% ahead of you.
Rapes per capita:
UK: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
US: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
Ours is about double yours.
I concur that knowing self-defense techniques is critical. However, they take a long, long time of study before they're very. I, for example, have had 240 hours of training in Aikido with an 8th Dan master, and I would never attempt to defend myself against a guy with a knife! Unless I absolutely had to. This summer I was assaulted at our pool complex by two inebriated individuals, one of who was rather large. When the pipsqueak attacked me I reached for the large one who'd pressed his face into mine and was making threats and threw him out of the way first, before turning to the pipsqueak, whom I merely shoved back on his butt. Fortunately, that was enough to end it, but if the larger one had gone for a tackle, I'm doubtful I'd have been the victor.
Those 240 hours of instruction, by the way, cost $840!
As we see from the NationMaster.com data, our murder rate by guns is far higher than yours, and the rape data says ours is double yours. No doubt about it, we Americans tend to be more violent than those of you in the UK. This same trend, however, is repeated throughout most of the countries from whom our citizens immigrated. The obvious exception, of course, is Mexico, whose murder rate per capita is 4 times greater than here in the US.
Sounds good!
OK, I've properly read your message and you have raised a number of very good points. However, between my message and the quotes, it is a bit long and I see the message lengths getting quickly out of hand.
Perhaps we could focus on a few issues at a time and work through, to get a better understanding of each viewpoint.
Works for me.
I have no intention of trying to change your views, simply to provide you with as detailed an opinion as possible.
Same here. I'm interested in knowing more about why people feel or believe as they do, while explaining the same to others, if they're at all interested in knowing the same about myself.
Despite my views on guns, I firmly believe in the right to defend yourself. I catch you in my house, I'm not holding back. As far as I'm concerned the intruders rights are forfeited the moment they violate mine.
Agreed. Here in Colorado, as in many other states, they have what's known as a "castle law," as in "a man's home is his castle, and he has the right to defend it against intrusion, with deadly force, if necessary. I was amazed to learn that California's laws require one to justify (and prove in court) any use of force in self-defense as being necessary given the level of force being used by the intruder. Thus, if an intruder walks in with nothing but his fists, using anything on him other than your own fists can and has been viewed as "excessive" and people have gone to jail for doing so.
I'd like to look at some comparisons of gun specific crime in the US and UK. And see some numbers for violent crime (attacks, robbery, rape) between the two (your article is good but I'd like some numbers).
I found an outstanding chapter written by Mike McGuire of the UK, published by the Oxford University Press, concerning crime statistics in general. He's concerned with how "data explosions" and changes in the kinds and types of statistics in general make comparing crime rates over time problematic.
Nevertheless, CountryRisk.com has numerous links for comparing countries. Am going through them now to see if there's a source of significant, comparable data.
...Ah, here we go. NationMaster.com has a Crime Statistics by Country section. Instead of my peppering our dialogue with unwanted stats, why don't you have a look yourself and let me know what you think might be meaningful.
I'll include just a few stats below which correspond to the points you raised.
I don't accept the argument of needing a gun to defend your home. If you are going to give everyone the opportunity to own a gun, then yes, you need it. But as per the UK, people cannot own a gun and so there is no need to defend against it.
Are knives also forbidden in the UK? For women especially, attempting to defend oneself against an intruder armed with a knife is problematic, particularly if the intruder knows how to use the knife. The amount of training required to successively and consistantly defeat your average knife attack with one's bare hands or a knife requires thousands of hours. As you up the lethality of a weapon (baseball /cricket bat, tire iron), the amount of time drops precipitously.
I have not seen any figures which show a need for people in the UK to consider illegal firearms a problem. Their occurrence is too insignificant to pose a true threat to the general population.
Murder per capita with firearms stats (from NationMaster.com):
UK: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
US: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
Our's is 27 times greater than yours.
I consider knives a true threat given how easy they are obtained, in this case, a gun may prove an effective defence, but then my 3ft steel bar gives a more than adequate defensive range.
Murder per capita (all types):
UK: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
US: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
The US is 3.0 times greater than the UK
However, that includes by firearms, so subtracting that out:
Murders per capita by means other than firearms:
UK: 0.013038 per 1,000 people
US: 0.014875 per 1,000 people
The US is 14% higher than the UK.
Comparing the non-specific murder rates with the ones specifically for "by firearms" and "by means other than firearms," there's some stats we can readily discern:
1. The murder rate in the US is 3 times greater than it is in the UK.
2. The murder rate by firearms in the US is 27 times greater than it is in the UK.
3. The murder rate by means other than firearms is on par (slightly higher).
The conclusion we can draw from this is that the difference between the murder rates in the US and the UK is due largely to firearms. If so, we should see this reflected in a nearly identical rate of assaults per capita between the US and the UK:
Assaults per capita:
UK: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
US: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
Yep - we're just 1.4% ahead of you.
So far as street crime goes, I believe a good knowledge of self defence techniques is perfect. As you have demonstrated. Giving a gun to an untrained person isn't a wise idea in my opinion, although without seeing accurate figures showing rape and attack crimes I can't say how true my opinion is and whether or not carrying a gun is a good deterrent.
Rapes per capita:
UK: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
US: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
Ours is about double yours.
I concur that knowing self-defense techniques is critical. However, they take a long, long time of study before they're very. I, for example, have had 240 hours of training in Aikido with an 8th Dan master, and I would never attempt to defend myself against a guy with a knife! Unless I absolutely had to. This summer I was assaulted at our pool complex by two inebriated individuals, one of who was rather large. When the pipsqueak attacked me I reached for the large one who'd pressed his face into mine and was making threats and threw him out of the way first, before turning to the pipsqueak, whom I merely shoved back on his butt. Fortunately, that was enough to end it, but if the larger one had gone for a tackle, I'm doubtful I'd have been the victor.
Those 240 hours of instruction, by the way, cost $840!
I don't agree that lower instances of violent crime can be attributed completely to gun ownership. Your report shows England to have a high violent crime rate, but I can't accept America's rate is lower because of gun ownership. That's basically ignoring all other possible factors.
As we see from the NationMaster.com data, our murder rate by guns is far higher than yours, and the rape data says ours is double yours. No doubt about it, we Americans tend to be more violent than those of you in the UK. This same trend, however, is repeated throughout most of the countries from whom our citizens immigrated. The obvious exception, of course, is Mexico, whose murder rate per capita is 4 times greater than here in the US.
Right, I've started with a general response to your message and I'll leave it there for now and let you respond to that. Don't want to over do it. If we can get some views on this and then once we're happy, we'll continue with other points in your message.
Regards,
Sounds good!