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Thread: Some Psychological Reasons People may oppose OC

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Some Psychological Reasons People may oppose OC

    I work in the IT Industry. I have been a student of IT Security for many years. I have followed many of the writings of Bruce Schneier. Mr. Schneier often points out the things people do to improve security only make them feel more secure, without actually making them more secure. His website and blog can provide many examples of this.

    Following that line of thought, let's examine OC. What follows is only thoughts of mine I am putting forth as possible explanations and theories. Please (even if stated as such for the sake of explanation) do not take these items as fact and start flaming me

    1. If people see fewer firearms, then less guns must exist, or at least fewer firearms are being carried. If fewer firearms are carried, there is less potential they will be used or used violently. None of this is true, of course, because many guns that are legally and illegally used are carried concealed. BUT the old adage of "out of sight, out of mind" applies here and causes people to feel more secure.
    2. People would like to think society is filled with good people; it makes them feel safer. Seeing guns openly being carried contradicts this. If people are carrying a gun they mean to do one of two things: 1) Protect themselves 2) Attack someone else. Both of these items runs counter to what they'd like to think/feel about society and being safe. Ergo, they reject OC.

    Thoughts? Comments? Other ramblings (like mine)?

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    TheQ speaks truth... I'll be so brave as to add to his post....

    3. To many people the sight of a gun is a reminder that they themselves do not have the courage to defend their loved ones.. or themselves. They know deep inside that when confronted by a violent criminal they will fall to the ground, wet themselves, and beg for mercy while the criminal has his way with their family and them too because at heart they are a coward. But, in order to save their own ego, it is impossible to admit to being a coward so their fear of failing and self hatred for being a coward is projected onto the gun that reminded them of their inner cowardice.

    This is why a rabid anti gunner walks up to a person carrying a gun and angrily states they feel "intimidated" and/or "scared" when, in reality, if they were truly "intimidated" or "scared" they would avoid any contact. They are NOT afraid or intimidated... they are furious to be reminded that they are a coward.

    This is also why supposedly "manly men" bristle up, strut, and make silly insults about the person carrying a gun in an attempt to dominate. They are also cowards and instinctively know that in the man world of measuring manliness the gun carrier outdicked them without even bothering to get into the contest. And for guys like that it is just unimaginably infuriating when they are outdicked by a woman carrying a gun.

    4. Many people also know that they themselves do not have the self control to have a gun anywhere near them because if they did they would use the gun to settle the smallest of perceived insults. They fear what they would do with a gun and project that fear onto everyone else arrogantly assuming that everyone is just like them... angry little people willing to use a gun to dominate. I actually have a small degree of admiration for these people because they know themselves well enough to not have a gun... but they also annoy me to no end because they think everyone shouldn't have a gun.

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... it is all about fragile egos, lack of self esteem, desire to dominate, and inner fears. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

    My, my, I did ramble a bit.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 09-19-2010 at 04:55 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Many times we reduce society or sections of society to the least common denominator to make people at the lower end more comfortable. Rather than asking those who don't have a gun to get one, the more PC thing to do is to order those who do have one to reduce themselves to the least common denominator.

    This happens in all walks of life. In school, the slowest passing kid dictates the speed at which the other children will be taught, for example.

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I work in the IT Industry. I have been a student of IT Security for many years. I have followed many of the writings of Bruce Schneier. Mr. Schneier often points out the things people do to improve security only make them feel more secure, without actually making them more secure. His website and blog can provide many examples of this.

    Following that line of thought, let's examine OC. What follows is only thoughts of mine I am putting forth as possible explanations and theories. Please (even if stated as such for the sake of explanation) do not take these items as fact and start flaming me

    1. If people see fewer firearms, then less guns must exist, or at least fewer firearms are being carried. If fewer firearms are carried, there is less potential they will be used or used violently. None of this is true, of course, because many guns that are legally and illegally used are carried concealed. BUT the old adage of "out of sight, out of mind" applies here and causes people to feel more secure.
    2. People would like to think society is filled with good people; it makes them feel safer. Seeing guns openly being carried contradicts this. If people are carrying a gun they mean to do one of two things: 1) Protect themselves 2) Attack someone else. Both of these items runs counter to what they'd like to think/feel about society and being safe. Ergo, they reject OC.

    Thoughts? Comments? Other ramblings (like mine)?
    Being an IT guy,you have heard the adage "garbag in garbage out" I suppose.I explain this to people in order for them to understand how people think and act.Our brain is a super computer that has recorded everything we hear,see and feel by touch.The last four decades the "bad gun" propaganda has been spread totaly,in the liberal media.The vast majority of people have been exposed to this,without any other education towards firearms.So they simply understand,think and act accordingly.There's also the denial factor,which is human nature.We have learned as children that we are punished for being or doing wrong,so we protect ourselves from being punished by denial.This continues into adulthood,unless we come to an understanding,through maturity,that we no longer have to fear that deep seeded punishment factor and become truly free.I understand denial,as a recovering alcoholic.Through all the years of destruction,I didn't understand the truth,until the light of understanding went off in my head.I then new the truth and have lived 14 sober years since,totaly free.Those who haven't overcome denial ,by the facts and truth,are still suffering from the lack of knowing there right to protect themselves individualy and their responsebility to do so.Thats how propaganda and brain washing work,and History has shown that many in power know that(Hitler,Mao,Stalin etc. etc.),and some are ignorant (sheep) of that. I have compassion for those who do not know the truth of the creation of our founding documents,because next to the Bible(which I believe in),our founding documents are the greatest documents,written by men,in the history of mankind.I take it as my duty to do the best I can to at least try to EDUCATE people of what they truly have,but don't know it! The "garbage in garbage out" phrase is the simplest way to comprehend the situation we have.Of course there are truly bad (greedy,power hungry) people fighting us and some are just ignorant of the facts.Thus education!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    TheQ speaks truth... I'll be so brave as to add to his post....

    3. To many people the sight of a gun is a reminder that they themselves do not have the courage to defend their loved ones.. or themselves. They know deep inside that when confronted by a violent criminal they will fall to the ground, wet themselves, and beg for mercy while the criminal has his way with their family and them too because at heart they are a coward. But, in order to save their own ego, it is impossible to admit to being a coward so their fear of failing and self hatred for being a coward is projected onto the gun that reminded them of their inner cowardice.

    This is why a rabid anti gunner walks up to a person carrying a gun and angrily states they feel "intimidated" and/or "scared" when, in reality, if they were truly "intimidated" or "scared" they would avoid any contact. They are NOT afraid or intimidated... they are furious to be reminded that they are a coward.

    This is also why supposedly "manly men" bristle up, strut, and make silly insults about the person carrying a gun in an attempt to dominate. They are also cowards and instinctively know that in the man world of measuring manliness the gun carrier outdicked them without even bothering to get into the contest. And for guys like that it is just unimaginably infuriating when they are outdicked by a woman carrying a gun.

    4. Many people also know that they themselves do not have the self control to have a gun anywhere near them because if they did they would use the gun to settle the smallest of perceived insults. They fear what they would do with a gun and project that fear onto everyone else arrogantly assuming that everyone is just like them... angry little people willing to use a gun to dominate. I actually have a small degree of admiration for these people because they know themselves well enough to not have a gun... but they also annoy me to no end because they think everyone shouldn't have a gun.

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... it is all about fragile egos, lack of self esteem, desire to dominate, and inner fears. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

    My, my, I did ramble a bit.
    Why don't you go ahead and tell us what you really think! LOL!
    By the way you're right!
    Last edited by hamaneggs; 09-19-2010 at 05:12 PM.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    SNIP

    3. To many people the sight of a gun is a reminder that they themselves do not have

    4. Many people also know that they themselves do not have the self control to

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... it is all about fragile egos, lack of self esteem, desire to dominate, and inner fears. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.
    Nice write up. I especially liked the part about some men being out***** by women carrying guns. That was hilarious.

    I have just one little disagreement.

    I no longer believe the opposition amounts to "many people". I can still count on one hand the number of strangers who made negative comments to me about my OC. On the other hand, I've completely lost count of the positive comments I've received from people these last 3 1/2 years. The count must be a couple dozen at least.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    In this time and place, the Violence Policy Center/Brady Bunch has been reduced to a hollow shell. Those groups that oppose honest citizens legally armed are going the way of the Dodo bird.

    We have a long way to go to overcome our leadership's attempts at demonizing a hand tool and turning around the negative rhetoric repeated daily in our schools, but we are winning. It is working.

    Individuals will always exist who cannot or will not see clearly, but their number is diminishing. For every negative encounter, there are thousands that at least quietly understand and accept the fundamental truth - honest citizens with or without a gun are NOT the problem.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    SNIP We have a long way to go to overcome our leadership's attempts at demonizing a hand tool and turning around the negative rhetoric repeated daily in our schools, but we are winning.
    Maybe part of the problem is that somebody annointed them "leaders". Themselves, likely.

    When I vote for president, I vote for the leader of the executive branch of the fedgov, not the nation. When I vote for my senator, congressman, or delegate, I vote for who will be my representative--not my goddam leader.

    Constitutional republics are designed to prevent concentration. A "leader", the very definition of concentration, is contradictory.

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    Regular Member Slave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    TheQ speaks truth... I'll be so brave as to add to his post....

    3. To many people the sight of a gun is a reminder that they themselves do not have the courage to defend their loved ones.. or themselves. They know deep inside that when confronted by a violent criminal they will fall to the ground, wet themselves, and beg for mercy while the criminal has his way with their family and them too because at heart they are a coward. But, in order to save their own ego, it is impossible to admit to being a coward so their fear of failing and self hatred for being a coward is projected onto the gun that reminded them of their inner cowardice.

    This is why a rabid anti gunner walks up to a person carrying a gun and angrily states they feel "intimidated" and/or "scared" when, in reality, if they were truly "intimidated" or "scared" they would avoid any contact. They are NOT afraid or intimidated... they are furious to be reminded that they are a coward.

    This is also why supposedly "manly men" bristle up, strut, and make silly insults about the person carrying a gun in an attempt to dominate. They are also cowards and instinctively know that in the man world of measuring manliness the gun carrier outdicked them without even bothering to get into the contest. And for guys like that it is just unimaginably infuriating when they are outdicked by a woman carrying a gun.

    4. Many people also know that they themselves do not have the self control to have a gun anywhere near them because if they did they would use the gun to settle the smallest of perceived insults. They fear what they would do with a gun and project that fear onto everyone else arrogantly assuming that everyone is just like them... angry little people willing to use a gun to dominate. I actually have a small degree of admiration for these people because they know themselves well enough to not have a gun... but they also annoy me to no end because they think everyone shouldn't have a gun.

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... it is all about fragile egos, lack of self esteem, desire to dominate, and inner fears. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

    My, my, I did ramble a bit.
    I agree 100%. Antigun people try all sorts of crazy reasons, mostly from the emotional side, but truth and reason are just absent.

    Most of these people are control freaks, well, ones that I argue with constantly.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Maybe part of the problem is that somebody annointed them "leaders". Themselves, likely.

    When I vote for president, I vote for the leader of the executive branch of the fedgov, not the nation. When I vote for my senator, congressman, or delegate, I vote for who will be my representative--not my goddam leader.

    Constitutional republics are designed to prevent concentration. A "leader", the very definition of concentration, is contradictory.
    "Leader" is tongue in cheek - pick which pair.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    i would like to submit this! i think it explains and show the root of the problem.

    http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

    i find it enlightening

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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    i would like to submit this! i think it explains and show the root of the problem.

    http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

    i find it enlightening
    Very.

    I wonder if we are seeing the whole thing.

    I could almost swear I have read a print version where Snyder wrote that it is immoral to expect another to endanger his life to protect yours. As in, it is immoral to demand that police risk their lives to protect you. But, I've read several on-line versions seeking to quote and link it for one post or another, and I can't find that statement. Of course, it could just mean its time for me to start taking Geritol. Maybe somebody else wrote it, and I am misremembering the source. But, I could almost swear...

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    That was a very interesting article. Thank you.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    TheQ speaks truth... I'll be so brave as to add to his post....

    3. To many people the sight of a gun is a reminder that they themselves do not have the courage to defend their loved ones.. or themselves. They know deep inside that when confronted by a violent criminal they will fall to the ground, wet themselves, and beg for mercy while the criminal has his way with their family and them too because at heart they are a coward. But, in order to save their own ego, it is impossible to admit to being a coward so their fear of failing and self hatred for being a coward is projected onto the gun that reminded them of their inner cowardice.

    This is why a rabid anti gunner walks up to a person carrying a gun and angrily states they feel "intimidated" and/or "scared" when, in reality, if they were truly "intimidated" or "scared" they would avoid any contact. They are NOT afraid or intimidated... they are furious to be reminded that they are a coward.

    This is also why supposedly "manly men" bristle up, strut, and make silly insults about the person carrying a gun in an attempt to dominate. They are also cowards and instinctively know that in the man world of measuring manliness the gun carrier outdicked them without even bothering to get into the contest. And for guys like that it is just unimaginably infuriating when they are outdicked by a woman carrying a gun.

    4. Many people also know that they themselves do not have the self control to have a gun anywhere near them because if they did they would use the gun to settle the smallest of perceived insults. They fear what they would do with a gun and project that fear onto everyone else arrogantly assuming that everyone is just like them... angry little people willing to use a gun to dominate. I actually have a small degree of admiration for these people because they know themselves well enough to not have a gun... but they also annoy me to no end because they think everyone shouldn't have a gun.

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... it is all about fragile egos, lack of self esteem, desire to dominate, and inner fears. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

    My, my, I did ramble a bit.
    God Damn, I want that as my signature!

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    which part for your signature, doug?
    this one?
    "My, my, I did ramble a bit."
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    I think he means the whole thing.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Nice write up. I especially liked the part about some men being out***** by women carrying guns. That was hilarious.

    I have just one little disagreement.

    I no longer believe the opposition amounts to "many people". I can still count on one hand the number of strangers who made negative comments to me about my OC. On the other hand, I've completely lost count of the positive comments I've received from people these last 3 1/2 years. The count must be a couple dozen at least.
    I've paid close attention to the reactions of folks who see Yooperlady OC'ing her pink handled Smith and I get the biggest kick out of the reactions of the "manly men". I've seen "manly men" strutting along stop right in their tracks with mouth agape and eyes ablinkin' as their tender little egos try to assimilate the sight of a woman with a gun. I suspect... but do NOT want any proof!... those guys were suddenly experiencing "shrinkage".
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    i would like to submit this! i think it explains and show the root of the problem.

    http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

    i find it enlightening
    Conservatives must understand that the antipathy many liberals have for gun owners arises in good measure from their statist utopianism. This habit of mind has nowhere been better explored than in The Republic. There, Plato argues that the perfectly just society is one in which an unarmed people exhibit virtue by minding their own business in the performance of their assigned functions, while the government of philosopher-kings, above the law and protected by armed guardians unquestioning in their loyalty to the state, engineers, implements, and fine-tunes the creation of that society, aided and abetted by myths that both hide and justify their totalitarian manipulation. .

    I think this is one of the points I was driving at in my OP.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    -snip-
    I want that as my signature!
    Thanks ... I kinda like it too.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    This is easy>

    Number 1. Ignorance

    Number 2. Stupidity.

    It is a right and I will never make excuses for my carry. Also I will never accept some Psycho-Babble for some jerk trying to take my rights from me. Frankly this is a dangerous game giving the anti's some pretend-a-reason to suppress our rights. There is NO reason to fear, pretend to fear, or have any issue with me rights PERIOD!

    I wonder if we started to go after the LIB-Tards favorite rights what would happen... It would be a screaming tantrum! Most likely with violence from them and all kinds of public displays of insanity, riots, looting and the normal leftist response to their rights being touched or even discussed.

    I strongly disagree with a thread validating their stupidity and giving them excuses to trample on my rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I work in the IT Industry. I have been a student of IT Security for many years. I have followed many of the writings of Bruce Schneier. Mr. Schneier often points out the things people do to improve security only make them feel more secure, without actually making them more secure. His website and blog can provide many examples of this.

    Following that line of thought, let's examine OC. What follows is only thoughts of mine I am putting forth as possible explanations and theories. Please (even if stated as such for the sake of explanation) do not take these items as fact and start flaming me

    1. If people see fewer firearms, then less guns must exist, or at least fewer firearms are being carried. If fewer firearms are carried, there is less potential they will be used or used violently. None of this is true, of course, because many guns that are legally and illegally used are carried concealed. BUT the old adage of "out of sight, out of mind" applies here and causes people to feel more secure.
    2. People would like to think society is filled with good people; it makes them feel safer. Seeing guns openly being carried contradicts this. If people are carrying a gun they mean to do one of two things: 1) Protect themselves 2) Attack someone else. Both of these items runs counter to what they'd like to think/feel about society and being safe. Ergo, they reject OC.

    Thoughts? Comments? Other ramblings (like mine)?
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 09-21-2010 at 09:37 AM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    This is easy>
    I strongly disagree with a thread validating their stupidity and giving them excuses to trample on my rights.
    With every post of yours I understand more why Fozzy put you on ignore.

    There is a huge difference between validating and understanding. By understanding, we can aim to overcome the fears and help people put them aside. By validating, we accept their fears.

    Only an ignorant person worthy of being ignored wouldn't understand the difference.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    With every post of yours I understand more why Fozzy put you on ignore.

    There is a huge difference between validating and understanding. By understanding, we can aim to overcome the fears and help people put them aside. By validating, we accept their fears.

    Only an ignorant person worthy of being ignored wouldn't understand the difference.
    People can choose to not carry a pistol... and I am sure some just feel that there is no need. Just as I will not mandate they carry, I feel that they have no right to mandate that I don't. Makes the whole issue much easier.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    People can choose to not carry a pistol... and I am sure some just feel that there is no need. Just as I will not mandate they carry, I feel that they have no right to mandate that I don't. Makes the whole issue much easier.
    You know, this is a very good point. Its not like pro-gunners are demanding everyone carry a gun.


    -----------


    Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should start demanding that, socially rather than legally. Some rhetorical practice:

    "I'm tired of people getting away easy while I take on the additional burden of owning a firearm and carrying it in public, the expense of training with it--range fees, ammunition, etc. Non-carriers are shirking their duty to help protect society, just hiding behind the mantle of protection I afford through the uncertainty I create for criminals about who is and isn't armed."

    "Where's your gun, sir? How dare you not carry and make the environment that much safer for criminals, exposing both of us to a greater possibility of assault. Real good, there sport, encourage the criminals. Why don't you just hang up a sign, 'I'm not doing anything to protect myself, friends, family, or society."

    In this case we are not defending; we are demanding--suddenly the initiative shifts.

    Last edited by Citizen; 09-22-2010 at 11:38 PM.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You know, this is a very good point. Its not like pro-gunners are demanding everyone carry a gun.


    -----------


    Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should start demanding that, socially rather than legally. Some rhetorical practice:

    "I'm tired of people getting away easy while I take on the additional burden of owning a firearm and carrying it in public, the expense of training with it--range fees, ammunition, etc. Non-carriers are shirking their duty to help protect society, just hiding behind the mantle of protection I afford through the uncertainty I create for criminals about who is and isn't armed."

    "Where's your gun, sir? How dare you not carry and make the environment that much safer for criminals, exposing both of us to a greater possibility of assault. Real good, there sport, encourage the criminals. Why don't you just hang up a sign, 'I'm not doing anything to protect myself, friends, family, or society."

    In this case we are not defending; we are demanding--suddenly the initiative shifts.

    Perhaps they would see our point? Oh well, probably not. I do like the "defensive" position that they would have to assume, though. Perhaps we could push for some economic largess be constructed to assist us in purchasing our "tools of the trade". Sort of a "Piece Corps"/Gun Welfare program making the payment to us mandatory...oops, "voluntary"-- sort of like the income tax. Putting the whole constitutional issue aside, as "they" don't seem to worry about that old document much anyway, I rather like the idea! Just to cover our costs, though. (I promise)
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-22-2010 at 11:49 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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