COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attacks
Thread: Reach out to MPD?
I posted this on ICarry, but I'd like to add it to the discussion here as well. It's an idea for discussion, nothing more.
The root cause of this incident may be overlooked. Some police officers still feel the need to engage peaceful open carriers. From where does this need arise, and what can be done to promote growth amongst the ranks?
Instead of a protest or any other reaction, how could we reach out to police? By and far the police have been extremely good at respecting our rights the past year. I know there are a few incidents, and they make me just as upset as you, but I know most of the time they behave admirably.
So, how can we compassionately reach out and try to correct this from happening again? Rather than reacting and doing the typical things we do, what could we all learn from this?
What are some ideas on things not tried before? Perhaps an event that police can attend with us? A meet-and-greet? A fundraiser benefiting a police organization and police cause? Let's get the ideas rolling.
COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attacks
At the oc picnics all leo have been invited. In La Crosse we have tried to work very hard to inform the police about the issues concerning oc. At the vernon co. fair several of us talked with leo and two canidates running for sheriff. If we engage in the conversation every time the opportunity presents itself we will do a lot to promote our cause. The problem as I see it, we will need time to change the mindset of some leo and the public. OC is realitively new in this state so we should not be surprised when attitudes aren't changed fast. As for Madison this is not the first time an oc'er has had trouble there, seem like dept. policy is going to need some changing.
Don't forget, the problem goes deeper than merely cop opposition to OC.
This cannot possibly be the first time they ever violated someone's 4th and/or 5th Amendment rights. Those eight cops did not wake up this morning and say to themselves, "Well, today, for the first time in my career, I am going to violate some rights."
This is about cops enforcing their opinions, not the law. Rights taking a back seat to opinions. Cops who think "we are the law."
If you all fix their ideas on OC, you leave in place the underlying attitudes (propensities? mentall illnesses?) that made the incident possible.
You can try compassion, but I think you are going to need a much bigger stick. And, by the way, stiff sanctions can be applied compassionately. The compassion can be the idea to get the offender corrected before he does something really bad that screws up his career irreparably. And, the compassion can be for the cops' future victims-- prevention of future victims.
The point is to solve the problem--with whatever level of intervention is need in order to be effective. Compassion comes second. "Effectiveness" is the important point, not compassion.
If a light touch solves an ethics problem, great. The lighter the better, in my opinion. However, in this situation, given the all the circumstances, I would proceed directly to the hammer. I'm betting these cops been doing this sort of thing for a while. At this stage, they're just the willing hired thugs of a contrary administrator, I'm betting.
Last edited by Citizen; 09-19-2010 at 07:42 PM.
I wasn't going to comment any more but here's my take.
I wasn't part of the 1st 10 minutes or so of the discussion so I don't know how it escalated. I walked outside when there started being more cops than OC'ers.
Anyhow, it looked like the initial LEO called for clarification. It wasn't until the Sargent arrived that things got 'illegal'. He was the only one who officially talked to me. All the rest either would not talk or had normal, cordial conversations. One of the LEO was a female who had extensive body art and we talked to her about that.
The MPD have the proper procedures/policies already in place. They need to disseminate them to the rank an file and enforce them, in my opinion.
Question - did anyone involved in the incident say anything toward the LEO about the violations of God Given rights?
We explained as best we could but the sergeant was convinced he had the right to check to see if we are felons. We repeated it many times. Once WCI counsel gives the OK, I'll post my recording.
As Theodore Roosevelt said "Walk softly but carry a big stick".
There are many law enforcement officers that are dedicated and hard working and fine examples of their occupation. I and I'm sure all members of this forum have nothing but respect for those that fall in that niche. In fact there are law enforcement members on this forum that have supported open carry for years. Even at a time when they were scoffed at by their own bretheren. In my opinion law enforcement in general does a fine job in maintaining law and order under very challenging social conditions. What concerns me are those that refuse to recognize that the days of unchallenged police power are over, especially when there are occurances of blatant disregard for citizens civil rights. From my observation it appears that usually it is the more senior officers that have some rank that are involved in controversy. In this case it appears the officer that escalated the situation was a sergeant. There is no excuse for a person of law enforcement authority, especially one that gives direction to other officers, to not know the laws. The AG memorandum has been in place for a year and a half. All chiefs of police in the state received a copy. Policy instruction concerning proper stop and identify procedure was given to the Madison police core in 2004. There is no excuse for Madison law enforcement officers in a supervisory capacity to not be aware of the documents. The only reasonable answer to the current incident is that it got to the point where law enforcement essentially said do what I tell you or else and to hell with the law. I am a cop and you are sheep. My opinion.
Citizen, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The actions of these officers last night speak to a a deeper problem - legal/moral/philosophical - that spills over into other interactions they have with citizens.
I like the idea of having sanctions - consequences - for those who willfully violate rights. One way to do that would be to draft some new legislation.
I think you are seeing the problem that I see - while we can have a "win" for open carry in Wisconsin by winning a lawsuit (which I think is a great idea, by the way), those same officers will continue to violate rights of other people engaging in other activities. This happens all the time. So, there really needs to be a new level of understanding for these officers. They need to see the error of their ways - a paradigm shift in their thinking - a light needs to be lit in their heads.
I'm sure something could be done to help turn on a few lightbulbs, and it could have a profound effect on the way those officers deal with citizens everyday - not just open carry.
Its clear these officers acted outside of their authority. Yes, mistakes happen, but when police make mistakes, people's rights are at stake. Madison PD needs to recognize and quickly rectify the mistake their officers made. How quickly and effectively they do so will dictate what kind of response Wisconsin Carry takes.
Whatever response we do take, I can assure our members a fundraiser for a police organization or police cause WILL NOT be something Wisconsin Carry will participate in.
Police have an obligation to abide within the law. WCI expects no more and no less from them.
WCI respects good law enforcement. This was not good law enforcement. WCI does not believe the path to a good relationship with law enforcement is by pandering to them with a fundraiser for them after they violated our members rights. Period.
True freedom does not come by seeking the good graces of those with authority. Freedom come with an expectation that those entrusted by the public with authority to enforce the laws of the people ABIDE within those very same laws. Nothing more, nothing less. The police who abide within the law and limits of their authority already have our approval and respect, as they respect us by operating within their legal authority. We will not pander to those in law enforcement who operate outside of their authority hoping that pleasantries make them respect our rights.
In short, they shouldn't respect our right because they like us, they should respect our rights because they are our rights.
Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 09-19-2010 at 10:28 PM.
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yeah we'll reach out to them. That is WCI's position. We'll reach out for their pocketbooks.
I could see being a little less aggressive had this been a young rookie to the force that might not be totally clear on the laws and was honestly doing what he though was right and legal. But from previous posts I see that this was a seargant. This is a seasoned, expereinced officer that should obviously know better. He was obviously trying to take charge of the situation and set and example to his subordinates. Possibly to avoid embarrasment that "those "civies" weren't folowing his orders and he IS the law." Perhaps he is used to his fellow officers scrambing to cater to his every order but civilians are not under his thumb nor direction.
I like the idea of giving them a chance to apologize for what was done. Saying that their actions in this, their ability to admit fault, etc, will dictate your actions - I think that's very wise.
A Chance??? They HAD their chance after they did this SAME THING to Yates last year, they lost their chance!
But I see Nik wrote it depends on "how Madison Police rectify the situation."
I say, if the Mayor, the Police Chief, the officers in question, and the armed citizens of Wisconsin Carry can all meet outside city hall, and the Mayor and Chief state the officers "acted stupidly," (Obama's words, not mine) as well as stating to the press that Madison WELCOMES ALL open carriers AND states that any further action such as this will result in IMMEDIATE TERMINATION (because they (PD) did this last year as well), then I might be convinced to suggest WCI forgo a lawsuit.
Anything less than the paragraph above, is useless (take them to court)!
Last edited by Support The 2nd; 09-20-2010 at 12:44 AM.
I'm not from Wisconsin, but I feel the need to insert an opinion here. Apologies up front for intruding...
Let's put it this way: When any of us ends up in court for any reason, we are expected to have known the law so as not to have broken it. We have all heard, over and over, that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
When considering someone who's JOB is based on enforcing those laws, their knowledge and understanding of of the law should be encyclopedic compared to ours.
The people have delegated them some authority to enforce laws, and the ONLY way they can do that is to know the laws - not guess at them or make them up as they go along.
If a Law Enforcement Officer breaks a law, ignorance of the law is no excuse for them, either.
In fact, they should be held to a higher standard than Joe Public in knowing the laws, since the permission to use the limited authority we granted them to do the job we delegated to them requires intimate knowledge and understanding of the law.
What was the question again?
No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey
• • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •
Some of you may have respect for LEO's, but I have nothing BUT extreme loathing for them. They aint your friend, they are out to put us LAW BREAKERS in the clink...NOTHING MORE.
http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.
Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???
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