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Thread: How NOT to shoot the good guys!

  1. #1
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    Exclamation How NOT to shoot the good guys!

    Here is a subject that I have not seen broached before, and hopefully we will never experience. Many of us practice regularly at the range for a SHTF scenario how many of us think about this, will the BG / terrorist / shooter always be blindly apparent, or could it be that they are just one of the crowd.


    Whether you OC, CC, or are just out and about this is in need of open discussion. the bellow is borrowed from The Warrior Talk News, September edition


    1). Look at the “subject’s” appearance. At the Trolley Square Mall shooting..... The police were on scene BEFORE the fight was over, and had to evaluate the off-duty cop before linking up with him; His physical movements, weapons handling, use of cover and clean cut hair cut sent a strong message to the first uniform on scene that this might not be the bad guy. Does the subject of your attention look like he is trained? Does he dress and look like a “good guy”. Certainly not all good guys look the part, and that is why we have additional points of reference.

    2). Look at what is he armed with? Is it a modern high quality weapon, or is it some cheap firearm. The police would not use a Tech 9, nor an SKS, nor even a shiny revolver today. Black modern pistols and black modern rifles are quite common however. There is even an agency issuing Arsenal AKs in 5.56!

    3). Look at his actions. Obviously, if they point guns at you, or begin to, all bets are off and you stop them from doing that. But that will not always be the case. In video of the Mumbai murders, the terrorists were very relaxed. They were not worried about being shot and were doing all the shooting themselves. Contrast that with the movements of the victims and Indian police responders, who were running and making use of cover. In other mass shooting events, the bad guys were described as moving casually with their weapons.

    One member at my forum relates how the Israelis found it relatively easy to determine bad guy from good guy with only a few seconds of observation based on actions.

    He writes: "In the words of one army responder: ‘There were armed people shooting at women and children, and there were armed people who were not. I shot those in the first group. No civilian responder was the victim of friendly fire, despite the fact that none of us knew each other and none of us was in uniform.’ "

    If you choose to get involved in an incident as CCW Operator, or Off Duty Officer, or if you are sent as a Uniformed Officer to a call involving gunfire, consider these three elements before making your deadly force decision. If you have time to analyze what is going on, you also have time to evaluate what you see before you. Everyone wants to shoot the bad guy, but nobody wants to shoot a good guy.
    It may not and very likely will not be a black and white situation where PERP ID is blindingly obvious, so it's time for discussion and thoughts!!!

  2. #2
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    ‘There were armed people shooting at women and children, and there were armed people who were not. I shot those in the first group. No civilian responder was the victim of friendly fire, despite the fact that none of us knew each other and none of us was in uniform.’
    The above is the most telling. Often BGs and GGs do similar things. This even prompts some to try to draw some moral equivalence. If you look at the targets of the unknown person, whether he is stopping threats, or acting against non-threats, you can readily assess if he is a BG or a GG.

    Oh, and check the hat color, too!

  3. #3
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    Careful here folks...this excerpt gives examples of the Mumbai shooting, which was a group of well organized and highly motivated terrorists. Though most of the information can be used to provde priceless insight, know what the information is geared toward and that the OP is asking about BG's blending in. Those that blend can be very methodical to very disorganized.

    From a Psychology standpoint, yes this is VERY accurate. From a former military LEO, you won't have time to react and consider these things as you'll likely be complacent at the time of incident unless something gives you a HUGE cue prior to an incident. It would need to be that "What the...." moment that grabs your attention and heightens your alertness level.

    So test yourself from time to time and see just how well you're paying attention, you might be surprised at you may have overlooked. From the Matrix: Were you paying attention or were you looking at the woman in the red dress? Look again.

    The Colonel stresses in his materials that slow is fast, so slow things down if and when you can. Your chances of survival and the survival of others may depend on it. If you've not read any of his material, I suggest it as a reader.
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-20-2010 at 01:38 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member SargentMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Careful here folks...this excerpt gives examples of the Mumbai shooting, which was a group of well organized and highly motivated terrorists. Though most of the information can be used to provde priceless insight, know what the information is geared toward and that the OP is asking about BG's blending in. Those that blend can be very methodical to very disorganized.

    From a Psychology standpoint, yes this is VERY accurate. From a former military LEO, you won't have time to react and consider these things as you'll likely be complacent at the time of incident unless something gives you a HUGE cue prior to an incident. It would need to be that "What the...." moment that grabs your attention and heightens your alertness level.

    So test yourself from time to time and see just how well you're paying attention, you might be surprised at you may have overlooked. From the Matrix: Were you paying attention or were you looking at the woman in the red dress? Look again.

    The Colonel stresses in his materials that slow is fast, so slow things down if and when you can. Your chances of survival and the survival of others may depend on it. If you've not read any of his material, I suggest it as a reader.
    Why is it, that every time I read one of your posts, you make a point of saying you agree with the OP... BUT then, you basically disagree with what he says?

  5. #5
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Threat

    Also I try to think if someone was at the Lakewood coffee shop who was carrying and went to their defense. I wonder if the LEO's might initialy think that they were a second BG and possibly get shot by the LEO?
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
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  6. #6
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    With regard to the referenced Trolley Square shooting situation and the OFF DUTY LEO present.

    The off duty LEO's wife, a 911 dispatch operator was there with him and called 911, identified her husband by physical description, clothing, and agency he worked for.

    The above MAY not eliminate all risk but it seems that most of the time IT WON"T HURT!

  7. #7
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Two Scenarios

    The two scenarios I can think of would be 1) Terrorist and 2) Gang-banger/Thug.

    In scenario 1, I think the person walking through the mall/school with an AK47 shooting people is probably the bad guy. Could be wrong but he would be the one I would shoot first!

    In scenario 2, the clothing (pants hanging down around knees) and other attire would be a clue but the biggest clue would be them holding their stolen Glock sideways shooting at other gang-bangers/thugs or store owners/customers. In this case I would just shoot the guy with the gun that was wearing his pants lower than the other. ;-)

    If some other scenario like a psychotic ex-marine weilding a M16 happens, I will be hiding in the ladies undergarment section. (comforting others of course )
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 09-21-2010 at 07:21 PM.

  8. #8
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    Careful that you don't shoot a plumber.

    If you see boxers, it's a gang-banger. Fire away.

    If you see a crack, it's a plumber. Aw, heck. For what they charge, shoot him anyway.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If you see a crack, it's a plumber. Aw, heck. For what they charge, shoot him anyway.
    that's not very nice. If you think they charge too much perhaps you should try being a plumber.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    that's not very nice. If you think they charge too much perhaps you should try being a plumber.
    I don't have the pants for it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Dang, eye 95 actually said something that was funny. Whodathunkit?

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    If some other scenario like a psychotic ex-marine weilding a M16 happens, I will be hiding in the ladies undergarment section. (comforting others of course )
    Lol! You forgot to mention the exceptional visual concealment afforded by lace and frill! Perfect behind which you can take time to get a good bead on the BG and drop him with a head shot.

    Sheldon, excellent article, excellent advice.

    Another hint: If you see someone in civilian attire making an arrest by saying things like, "Gun down! Put the gun down on the ground!" that's probably not someone you need to worry about, either.
    Last edited by since9; 09-23-2010 at 06:29 AM.
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