incident at Fowlerville Wal Mart

Ok, heres one for thought. I have a cpl. I carry both open and concealed, depending on what I'm wearing. Usually in my right back pocket as i have for most of my adult life. (I'm 56 now). I was in WalMart shopping where I always shop, carrying openly as is the norm and minding my own business. I had several conversations with friends that I encountered (none concerning the Colt Commander in my back pocket) and when I was done shopping I went to the check out lanes. While I was talking to the cashier, a woman whom I know from school field trips with our kids, non other than the chief of police crept up behind me. The cashier stared wide eyed alerting me to the sneaky approach and I turned, asking "What's up"
This guy knows me well from several other encounters, only one of which was less than positive. "Well, obviously I got a call about a man with a gun."
"Yeah. That would be me right?" Remember, contempt of cop is not against the law. This guy does know me. "Open carry is legal."
"Well, yeah." he paused, "So is that open carry or do you have a permit?" (We pay this guy)
"Well...it's hangin' from my pocket there so it looks like open carry to me." I stated the painfully obvious for him and the gathering crowd of onlookers, now numbering about ten or so. "But I have a permit too."
"Could I see your permit," he stared up at me from his towering five foot six inch height. "or do you have a problem with that?"
"Yeah I have a problem with that." I resisted picking him up and placing him on the check out conveyer where I could look him in the eye. I handed him the permit along with my DL and continued, "Wal Marts policy is that they welcome all guests that are compliant with Federal, state and local laws.
He briefly peeked at my documents and handed them back. "I didn't know that. Have a nice evening."
And with that he handed them back to me and scurried down to the stores Loss Prevention office, no doubt to examine their company policy manuel. I looked about at the other people standing there and they had mostly supportive comments to offer me along with some suggestions as to where Fowlervilles top cop might be more welcome. (pretty hot there)
I looked for something I could print out here to offer him as a form of educational materials. Venator knows some of his past story from the OC event we held at our club house here in Fowlerville but I couldn't find anything appropriate.
Suggestions? (not wise cracks or sarcasim)

My suggestion?

Maybe print something off and have it on you, but for the most part I would say "carry on".
He was being an idiot, but as long as he didn't arrest or detain you, being an idiot is not a crime either.
If he does arrest or detain you then, well... he's going to learn a lot more about OC.

rj3663 said:

Suggestions?

Click to expand...

Yes. Stop joking on the forums about doing something stupid like carrying a gun in your back pocket partially visible. It gets some people riled up who don't realize you're joking about doing such an idiotic thing.

I dont know you, so this is not a personal remark....just an observation.

If you truly had your gun "dangling" from your back pocket...I would offer the suggestion to invest in and wear a holster when carrying. If nothing else but to appear somewhat responsible with your firearm. I would imagine it would be greatly appreciated by the rest of the legally licensed carrying community who have enough obsticles to deal with on a daily basis without having to worry about one of our own acting in an irresponsible manner which could only make retaining our freedoms even more difficult.

Just my .02

Agreed, get a retention holster.

Okay I am going out on a limb here to say this is fake, this is some-one coming on here to try and make OCers look bad. I may be wrong.

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack

You are incriminating yourself. Police yourself, and IF this is a real story, get a holster, and do US a favor and conceal with your CPL for now on.[/SIZE]

yes, please get a holster, haveing your firearm dangling from a back pocket is careless in the extreme. and dangerous, you can get a good holster from blackhawk for 30 - 40 dollars

NHCGRPR45 said:

yes, please get a holster, haveing your firearm dangling from a back pocket is careless in the extreme. and dangerous, you can get a good holster from blackhawk for 30 - 40 dollars

Click to expand...

If you can afford a firearm, no matter how poor you are, you damn well better be able to afford a GOOD holster, and GOOD SD AMMO! (nothing against blackhawk, that is not what I am saying here, blackhawk is what I normally use daily).

Exactly. I'm on a fixed income, but I still carry top grade SD ammo, and a good holster, one's a blackhawk, the other a Falco. The gun, an XD, was gotten on a layaway plan. Money isn't the issue, its patience, and passion.

fowlerville WM

i've OCed several times at that walmart and never any issues. even had an interested CC wanted to OC but thought he would be the only one.

Agreed with everyone else. You can get a holster for $10. That'd be my only suggestion so far.

I suppose that I failed to mention that the holster that I use is an insert and fits the square pocket of my jeans as well as the inside pocket of my leather vest. I don't always wear my vest as I'm not always on my bike. I'm not rich nor am I poor nor is the holster new. I own a variety of holsters and this one is the one I'm most accustomed to. I'm not Quick Draw McGraw and don't want to be but I can move very fluidly with my firearm in this position and to draw and place an accurate round is my greatest concern. I thank you all for your heartfelt suggestions and even greater patience. As far as the name calling, God bless you and your superior attitude, you are indeed the spoksman for the entire group here
Keep OC'ing!

Get a damn holster and be done with these problems!

I am guessing obviously since you didn't define a holster make or model, that it might be one of those thin suede inside holsters with the metal clip to secure it to your person? If so a back pocket is a little easy to snatch it from.

I guess I am a little confused, the Police Chief and Wal-marts prevention office? Does the Chief moonlight there? Maybe I missed something. I am a big guy and looking down at some little dink like that would have made me after such an encounter want to scan his forehead on the bar code scanner. I am guessing the price would have come up as $00.00

I would have asked why he was sneaking up behind me, as you alleged. That would be a great concern as I carry a hidden back up weapon and my weapon being snatched would have been met with a .0075 second not so nice response with a gun shoved in his face so fast he may not know how to react. I have practiced this potential many times and I decided to not be a victim of a gun snatch killing like so many Law Enforcement officers. Someone absent of a clear uniform would be in peril for trying such.

I guess what concerns me assuming everything you said is accurate is the sneaking up behind someone thing. Frankly I would have confronted him loud enough for everyone within 50 feet to know how dangerous what he was going to do would be. If that was his intentions.

This should also be a notice for any security or Law enforcement idiot who would sneak up and try such a idiotic stunt. It could end in a horrible way for them. Anyone who snatches a weapon by surprise better make sure his will is up to date because in most cases this action is the action of someone intent on doing harm and self defense is a RIGHT! If I see someone back peddling with my weapon I am going to prevent him/her from hurting someone with it, and ask questions later, and for the Wyatt Earp wanna bee's I often travel with others who carry concealed and Feces could hit the turbine quick. There is no sane reason for anyone to snatch a weapon and if one of my guys did such he would be fired and blackballed on his work record, and I would make sure that if any potential employer ever asked this would be stated in the clearest of Terms to any potential employer. All my guys knew that was a serious no no.

rj3663 said:

I suppose that I failed to mention that the holster that I use is an insert and fits the square pocket of my jeans as well as the inside pocket of my leather vest. I don't always wear my vest as I'm not always on my bike. I'm not rich nor am I poor nor is the holster new. I own a variety of holsters and this one is the one I'm most accustomed to. I'm not Quick Draw McGraw and don't want to be but I can move very fluidly with my firearm in this position and to draw and place an accurate round is my greatest concern. I thank you all for your heartfelt suggestions and even greater patience. As far as the name calling, God bless you and your superior attitude, you are indeed the spoksman for the entire group here
Keep OC'ing!

Click to expand...

I have OC'd at many Wal-mart stores and never a funny look from staff. And I carry one of those large frame Auto's that a blind man can see.

kryptonian said:

i've OCed several times at that walmart and never any issues. even had an interested CC wanted to OC but thought he would be the only one.

Click to expand...

rj3663 said:

I suppose that I failed to mention that the holster that I use is an insert and fits the square pocket of my jeans as well as the inside pocket of my leather vest.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification, but you're now failing to mention how secure the holster is in your back pocket and how secure the gun is in the holster. Particularly with carry at your six o' clock, where SA and ability to control is at their minimum, the holster and gun need to be nearly impossible to remove and control by anyone other than you. If there is a FAIL on that, you FAIL on carry at your six o' clock, and I suggest you carry with a good retention holster on your hip or more to the front.

Due to the already mentioned minimum of SA and control there is at your six o' clock, I would just generally suggest that open carry be done with a retention holster on your dominant side. If you are right-handed or your right hand/arm is strongest, carry on your right hip, right thigh, or right front. You are not making the best choice with regard to carry in your back pocket, even if it's with a good retention holster. You are skipping over at least three other choices of where to carry on your person that are significantly superior.

rj3663 said:

Ok, heres one for thought. I have a cpl. I carry both open and concealed, depending on what I'm wearing. Usually in my right back pocket as i have for most of my adult life. (I'm 56 now). I was in WalMart shopping where I always shop, carrying openly as is the norm and minding my own business. I had several conversations with friends that I encountered (none concerning the Colt Commander in my back pocket) and when I was done shopping I went to the check out lanes. While I was talking to the cashier, a woman whom I know from school field trips with our kids, non other than the chief of police crept up behind me. The cashier stared wide eyed alerting me to the sneaky approach and I turned, asking "What's up"
This guy knows me well from several other encounters, only one of which was less than positive. "Well, obviously I got a call about a man with a gun."
"Yeah. That would be me right?" Remember, contempt of cop is not against the law. This guy does know me. "Open carry is legal."
"Well, yeah." he paused, "So is that open carry or do you have a permit?" (We pay this guy)
"Well...it's hangin' from my pocket there so it looks like open carry to me." I stated the painfully obvious for him and the gathering crowd of onlookers, now numbering about ten or so. "But I have a permit too."
"Could I see your permit," he stared up at me from his towering five foot six inch height. "or do you have a problem with that?"
"Yeah I have a problem with that." I resisted picking him up and placing him on the check out conveyer where I could look him in the eye. I handed him the permit along with my DL and continued, "Wal Marts policy is that they welcome all guests that are compliant with Federal, state and local laws.
He briefly peeked at my documents and handed them back. "I didn't know that. Have a nice evening."
And with that he handed them back to me and scurried down to the stores Loss Prevention office, no doubt to examine their company policy manuel. I looked about at the other people standing there and they had mostly supportive comments to offer me along with some suggestions as to where Fowlervilles top cop might be more welcome. (pretty hot there)
I looked for something I could print out here to offer him as a form of educational materials. Venator knows some of his past story from the OC event we held at our club house here in Fowlerville but I couldn't find anything appropriate.
Suggestions? (not wise cracks or sarcasim)

Click to expand...

This is not a wise crack or sarcasm... the following is an attempt to explain what "open carry" is according to then Attorney General Granholm.

An excerpt from:

STATE OF MICHIGAN

JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, ATTORNEY GENERAL

-snip-

Opinion No. 7113

-snip-

A plain reading of section 5o(1) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act discloses, however, that its prohibition applies only to the carrying of pistols that are "concealed." A holstered pistol carried openly and in plain view is not "concealed" and therefore does not violate the prohibition contained in that section.

(Bold added for emphasis)

The entire Opinion can be viewed here:

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

My understanding of what then Attorney General Granholm said in that opinion is this....

A holstered pistol carried openly and in plain view................. is open carry. But that means the holstered gun and the holster both must be in plain view.

Hence a gun in a pocket inside pocket holster where a portion of the gun is concealed inside a holster that is concealed.... is concealed carry... NOT open carry.

Just because a portion of the gun can be seen doesn't mean that is open carry... open carry, per Granholm's opinion, is a pistol in a holster where holster and pistol are in plain sight.

In short... it would appear that Granholm defined open carry as a holstered pistol where holster and holstered pistol are in plain view. Conversely... if holstered pistol and holster are NOT in plain view... then it is "concealed carry".

Now an Attorney General's opinion isn't black letter law... but rest assured it will carry weight for the judge if a case comes to trial.

Or...... perhaps I'm reading that opinion incorrectly... although I suspect not... and someone more knowledgeable than I can chime in?

In response to several postings, whom I will not quote as there so many involved, The gun was not dangling it was in a position that placed the barrel down and the sight ramp to my right and the grip to the center of my back. It is a secure position and it has never been ejected from my holster. Anyone that is determined to snatch your gun will at least make a strong effort and police logs are full of gun grab incidents. There is a thread on this forum about a cop in Grayling or Traverse City grabbing a holstered gun on a guy that was in a gas station legally OC'ing. It's going to happen!
I have carried this way for years, with my shirt over it, with a kerchief over it and fully exposed. Wether it's in an exposed holster or not was not my question. It was plain and simple...OC!
The Cheif does not work at WalMart, he was in full uniform and as I stated in my op he knows me. We had contact over a prowler that I reported at my neighbors house and I'm very involved with my local community. I'm a Girl Scout leader alumni, volunteer in community projects and have had many pieces published in the local paper. I've been in this rual community for twenty five years and he's a transplant a couple years ago from a larger department in a larger community. The only negative interaction I've had with him was when the "In God We Trust m/c" a Christian club I'm with rode in the july 4th parade without wearing helmets. He cut us off at the end of the parade with his squad car squealing to a stop and jumped out doing a Don Knotts mexican hat dance telling us we'd never ride in "his" parade again in "his" town. I told him not to expect any free hot dogs at the village park later on.
Also, the AG's opinion is not applicable. I have a CPL. OC, concealed or simply visable it makes no matter.
I'm not going to take combat training or wear combat ready rigs to satisfy some extreme leftist people. This is MY second amendment right and no one, LEO or fellow OC'r is going to take that from me. I'll continue to carry as I see fit in the manner I choose with the ammo that I prefer.
The question in the op was where can I locate info to pass on to the Fowlerville PD to enlighten them?

Will this help hopefully it does

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

"And with that he handed them back to me and scurried down to the stores Loss Prevention office, no doubt to examine their company policy manuel." <--this is what you said in your post, thus my question if he worked there...

rj3663 said:

The Cheif does not work at WalMart, he was in full uniform and as I stated in my op he knows me.

Click to expand...