incident at Fowlerville Wal Mart

rj3663 · Sep 21, 2010

Bailenforcer said:
"And with that he handed them back to me and scurried down to the stores Loss Prevention office, no doubt to examine their company policy manuel." <--this is what you said in your post, thus my question if he worked there...

No harm no foul. I worked for a couple years as an Loss Prevention associate at Meijer. They all have a close association with LEO and he probably got the call from them directly so he was going in to tell them his findings for their reports. It was an odd hour for him to be working though.

rj3663 · Sep 21, 2010

quarter horseman said:
Will this help hopefully it does

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

That will help to a certain extent. How about a document explaining the limits of the LEO as far as asking for ID and the CPL without detaining (He asked if I "Had a problem with that") just because they have a firearm exposed.

Bikenut · Sep 21, 2010

rj3663 said:
In response to several postings, whom I will not quote as there so many involved, The gun was not dangling it was in a position that placed the barrel down and the sight ramp to my right and the grip to the center of my back. It is a secure position and it has never been ejected from my holster. Anyone that is determined to snatch your gun will at least make a strong effort and police logs are full of gun grab incidents. There is a thread on this forum about a cop in Grayling or Traverse City grabbing a holstered gun on a guy that was in a gas station legally OC'ing. It's going to happen!
I have carried this way for years, with my shirt over it, with a kerchief over it and fully exposed. Wether it's in an exposed holster or not was not my question. It was plain and simple...OC!

Sir... I was not trying to annoy you with my post concerning the Attorney General's opinion on what OC is... only to point out that just because a part of the gun is "in plain view" the Attorney General didn't consider that as OC.... even if you, or I, do. The point being that a judge would not ask you, or me, what constitutes OC but would look to Michigan law, any applicable case law, and any applicable Attorney General opinions... and render his decision based upon those.

My point is that it doesn't matter what we may think... the law can, and often does, say something entirely different.

The Cheif does not work at WalMart, he was in full uniform and as I stated in my op he knows me. We had contact over a prowler that I reported at my neighbors house and I'm very involved with my local community. I'm a Girl Scout leader alumni, volunteer in community projects and have had many pieces published in the local paper. I've been in this rual community for twenty five years and he's a transplant a couple years ago from a larger department in a larger community. The only negative interaction I've had with him was when the "In God We Trust m/c" a Christian club I'm with rode in the july 4th parade without wearing helmets. He cut us off at the end of the parade with his squad car squealing to a stop and jumped out doing a Don Knotts mexican hat dance telling us we'd never ride in "his" parade again in "his" town. I told him not to expect any free hot dogs at the village park later on.
Also, the AG's opinion is not applicable. I have a CPL. OC, concealed or simply visable it makes no matter.

Yes the AG's opinion is applicable... had you not had a CPL I strongly suspect your story would have ended much differently than it did. I suspect the officer you interacted with was already well aware of it because had just a portion of a gun sticking out of a pocket actually constituted legal OC the officer would not have asked to see your CPL in order to determine if you were legally carrying concealed.

Not only that but other people new to OC read this forum and for them to think that just because the butt of the gun is poking out of a pocket constitutes legal OC because people can see that there is a gun there will end up with them getting arrested due to a misunderstanding of what actually constitutes OC.

And I provided the link to that AG opinion, as have others, so you... and those new to OC... could look at the real thing.

I'm not going to take combat training or wear combat ready rigs to satisfy some extreme leftist people. This is MY second amendment right and no one, LEO or fellow OC'r is going to take that from me. I'll continue to carry as I see fit in the manner I choose with the ammo that I prefer.

You Sir, just like everyone else, can do whatever you wish. Whether or not what you wish satisfies the law is another question entirely.

The question in the op was where can I locate info to pass on to the Fowlerville PD to enlighten them?

Sir... I have no animosity for you or your post. I only wish to provide information that can be used to understand the law and how it works. And to point out that a gun sticking out of a pocket is not Open Carry ... but is Concealed Carry according to the Attorney General.

rj3663 · Sep 21, 2010

Ok, so now I've been pulled into a quasi intellectual pi**ing match by people that are unable to simply answer a question. The chief was made aware that we were hosting an OC information meeting last year with Brian Jeffs in attendance. He was invited along with the county prosecutor and any other persons that may be interested. The prosecutor would not come out because he said that the budget would not allow it. The chiefs response was to put all of the villages officers on duty and alert the state and county that Fowlerville was going to be crawling with bikers with guns strapped to their hips on that fine saturday afternoon.
My question was and remains, is there anything I can print off to hand to the Chief to help educate him on the parameters of an OC.
Also, I'm not splitting hairs on the holster issue. Just because someone doesn't like it or agree with it does not make it a non holster. Sure, if i did not posess a CPL it would have ended differently but that wasn't a question . Hell, if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumped but there's no question there either.
Optical rectitis sufferers...please refrain from further responses that stray from the question in the op!

eastmeyers · Sep 21, 2010

Bikenut said:
This is not a wise crack or sarcasm... the following is an attempt to explain what "open carry" is according to then Attorney General Granholm.

An excerpt from:

STATE OF MICHIGAN

JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, ATTORNEY GENERAL

-snip-

Opinion No. 7113

-snip-

A plain reading of section 5o(1) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act discloses, however, that its prohibition applies only to the carrying of pistols that are "concealed." A holstered pistol carried openly and in plain view is not "concealed" and therefore does not violate the prohibition contained in that section.

(Bold added for emphasis)

The entire Opinion can be viewed here:

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

My understanding of what then Attorney General Granholm said in that opinion is this....

A holstered pistol carried openly and in plain view................. is open carry. But that means the holstered gun and the holster both must be in plain view.

Hence a gun in a pocket inside pocket holster where a portion of the gun is concealed inside a holster that is concealed.... is concealed carry... NOT open carry.

Just because a portion of the gun can be seen doesn't mean that is open carry... open carry, per Granholm's opinion, is a pistol in a holster where holster and pistol are in plain sight.

In short... it would appear that Granholm defined open carry as a holstered pistol where holster and holstered pistol are in plain view. Conversely... if holstered pistol and holster are NOT in plain view... then it is "concealed carry".

Now an Attorney General's opinion isn't black letter law... but rest assured it will carry weight for the judge if a case comes to trial.

Or...... perhaps I'm reading that opinion incorrectly... although I suspect not... and someone more knowledgeable than I can chime in?

^^We Have A Winner^^

Anyways, yes normally it would be wrong for him to demand your CPL/ID, but he may have honestly thought you were doing something illegal, as explained in the quoted post above.

DanM · Sep 21, 2010

rj3663 said:
The gun was not dangling

I agree that folks need to leave subjective re-characterizations out of their responses. You described your carry, and that's what people need to stick to.

rj3663 said:
police logs are full of gun grab incidents.

Can you cite to a source for that? From my monitoring of general news and OC experiences related here, gun grab attempts on OC'ers are rare.

rj3663 said:
There is a thread on this forum about a cop in Grayling or Traverse City grabbing a holstered gun on a guy that was in a gas station legally OC'ing. It's going to happen!

One or a couple of incidents should not be used to inflate the probability of a concern. I wouldn't say, "It's going to happen" but rather it is more accurate to say "It's possible it can happen." For most of the gun carrying population, "it's going to happen" (in regard to a gun grab) is a prediction that will never come true.

rj3663 said:
Also, the AG's opinion is not applicable. I have a CPL. OC, concealed or simply visable it makes no matter.

Not true in all cases. You're ok with a CPL when carrying in places that are not a CC PFZ. If you walk through or into a CC PFZ, you must clearly be OC'ing in a holster outside of clothing or you take a risk of being charged with a CCW violation, even with your CPL.

rj3663 said:
I'll continue to carry as I see fit in the manner I choose with the ammo that I prefer.

No one questions that general principle of allowing and supporting choice in lawful conduct. However, there is question about your judgement, which is the foundation of exercising choices that will keep your weapon secure and yourself out of legal trouble. You carry your weapon in your back pocket, which is a physical point on your body with the minimum of SA and your ability to control. You thought the AG opinion doesn't apply to you, because you have a CPL, and therefore "OC, concealed, or simply visible it makes no matter." It is not entirely clear that your judgement is going to do the best job of keeping your weapon secure and yourself out of legal trouble.

Beerme · Sep 21, 2010

rj3663 said:
Usually in my right back pocket as i have for most of my adult life.
(I'm 56 now).
56 and you do not understand the idea of making sure your handgun is safe and secure?

I was in WalMart shopping where I always shop, carrying openly as is the norm and minding my own business. I had several conversations with friends that I encountered (none concerning the Colt Commander in my back pocket)
Real friends don't let friends endanger themselves and the people around them by performing actions that would make helen keller look like albert einstien.

"Well...it's hangin' from my pocket there
nuff said right there.
if you ever were in a gun grab scenario your gun would be gone long before your realized it.

that's that
I also enjoyed your post saying it is "secure" because it is in there a certain way.
please for the love of everything holy
get some common sense before you carry again.

Bailenforcer · Sep 21, 2010

One never knows he may not have been working he may have told the Dept. To personally call him on any open carry reports. These Barney Fife types will do the strangest things.

rj3663 said:
No harm no foul. I worked for a couple years as an Loss Prevention associate at Meijer. They all have a close association with LEO and he probably got the call from them directly so he was going in to tell them his findings for their reports. It was an odd hour for him to be working though.

eastmeyers · Sep 21, 2010

I realize my first reply in this thread was harsh. I do. It is still the most harsh post in this thread. I get that. I also understand it may have put you on the defensive. Now, I have this to say after thinking long and hard. I don't care.

We here at Open Carry Dot Org, TRY to police our own. I believe in this. In fact I have gone from being a very interactive member of this bord both on-line and in person to only reading, and posting very little. The reason being is it seems lately that we have had some really stupid threads, posts, and even members. If being harsh, and putting someone on the defensive, makes them not like us, and makes them give up on the "movement", this is not necessarily a bad thing, I would prefer it if certain people were not apart of this "movement". For instance, I personally believe in constitutional carry, unfortunately we do not have this in Michigan. So if you do NOT no the law, DO NOT CARRY! Learn the law first. If you are a slob or trash, or in anyway make the "movement" look horrible, I would defiantly prefer, those people either not carry or carry concealed (under the authority of a CPL). This is all my personal opinion. I don't believe in being politicaly correct, so this is why I have no problem calling out those whom do stupid things, but I do believe in good perception. We need to be seen in a good light.

I know the bigger we get their WILL be people whom OC that will make us look bad, but it is our duty as a "society" of OCers, to discourage these people, and let them know, they are not one of us. We need to Police our own. We used to do this well, no one had an issue with it. But now that we are getting larger and larger, some members seem to be defending the undefendable.

WARCHILD · Sep 21, 2010

I understand your frustration. Your words ring like the bell of truth; unfortunately, they fall upon deaf ears and closed minds.

JMO

Bikenut · Sep 21, 2010

WARCHILD said:
I understand your frustration. Your words ring like the bell of truth; unfortunately, they fall upon deaf ears and closed minds.

JMO

Hiya my friend! Ponderosa after the OC seminar in Owosso?

As for common sense falling upon deaf ears and closed minds... you forgot one thing.... arrogant self righteousness.

WARCHILD · Sep 21, 2010

Hey Y'All....agreed, along with childish attitudes.

Sorry, I have a date after the seminar; with the wife...not the girlfriend.:uhoh:

Bikenut · Sep 21, 2010

WARCHILD said:
Hey Y'All....agreed, along with childish attitudes.

Sorry, I have a date after the seminar; with the wife...not the girlfriend.:uhoh:

Yep... childish attitudes... something this forum seems to be rife with lately.

Bummer on no Ponderosa especially since I figured you'd buy... super good on you for having a date with your wife!

autosurgeon · Sep 21, 2010

I have to agree with eastmyers ,Bikenut and Warchild!

JeffSayers · Sep 21, 2010

This is a bit old and could use an update, but here is one:
http://michiganopencarry.org/node/4

Also, there was a presentation produced by the Michighan Municipal League (That your buddy has probably already seen and promptly ignored.) that was floating around here somewhere I beleive. I would look for you but I gotta run for now...

In closing, nice class showing him your docs to appease his fear. I would suggest reminding him as you pat his head that while one must have a CPL to possess a firearm in a store that sells alcohol in Michigan, he must also have RS of a crime to DEMAND such. However, anyone can ASK for anything.

stainless1911 · Sep 21, 2010

OP, contact MOC, they have a LEO packet which they give to police departments which are lacking in knowledge.

eb31 · Sep 21, 2010

eastmeyers said:
I realize my first reply in this thread was harsh. I do. It is still the most harsh post in this thread. I get that. I also understand it may have put you on the defensive. Now, I have this to say after thinking long and hard. I don't care.

We here at Open Carry Dot Org, TRY to police our own. I believe in this. In fact I have gone from being a very interactive member of this bord both on-line and in person to only reading, and posting very little. The reason being is it seems lately that we have had some really stupid threads, posts, and even members. If being harsh, and putting someone on the defensive, makes them not like us, and makes them give up on the "movement", this is not necessarily a bad thing, I would prefer it if certain people were not apart of this "movement". For instance, I personally believe in constitutional carry, unfortunately we do not have this in Michigan. So if you do NOT no the law, DO NOT CARRY! Learn the law first. If you are a slob or trash, or in anyway make the "movement" look horrible, I would defiantly prefer, those people either not carry or carry concealed (under the authority of a CPL). This is all my personal opinion. I don't believe in being politicaly correct, so this is why I have no problem calling out those whom do stupid things, but I do believe in good perception. We need to be seen in a good light.

I know the bigger we get their WILL be people whom OC that will make us look bad, but it is our duty as a "society" of OCers, to discourage these people, and let them know, they are not one of us. We need to Police our own. We used to do this well, no one had an issue with it. But now that we are getting larger and larger, some members seem to be defending the undefendable.

Amen x1000

Beerme · Sep 21, 2010

eastmeyers said:
I realize my first reply in this thread was harsh. I do. It is still the most harsh post in this thread. I get that. I also understand it may have put you on the defensive. Now, I have this to say after thinking long and hard. I don't care.

We here at Open Carry Dot Org, TRY to police our own. I believe in this. In fact I have gone from being a very interactive member of this bord both on-line and in person to only reading, and posting very little. The reason being is it seems lately that we have had some really stupid threads, posts, and even members. If being harsh, and putting someone on the defensive, makes them not like us, and makes them give up on the "movement", this is not necessarily a bad thing, I would prefer it if certain people were not apart of this "movement". For instance, I personally believe in constitutional carry, unfortunately we do not have this in Michigan. So if you do NOT no the law, DO NOT CARRY! Learn the law first. If you are a slob or trash, or in anyway make the "movement" look horrible, I would defiantly prefer, those people either not carry or carry concealed (under the authority of a CPL). This is all my personal opinion. I don't believe in being politicaly correct, so this is why I have no problem calling out those whom do stupid things, but I do believe in good perception. We need to be seen in a good light.

I know the bigger we get their WILL be people whom OC that will make us look bad, but it is our duty as a "society" of OCers, to discourage these people, and let them know, they are not one of us. We need to Police our own. We used to do this well, no one had an issue with it. But now that we are getting larger and larger, some members seem to be defending the undefendable.

I agree completely
I have been PMd on here for saying that carrying in the back pocket is completely idiotic...
IT IS
we are FOR sure growing and i have stayed off this sight for some of those reasons.
Dumb posts
Stupid people(not everyone)
Childish attitudes(not everyone)

We do need to police ourselves, we need people to try and look halfway presentable when they OC, we need them to OC something that has a valid purpose to be OC'd(no .22 Michigan Pistols) seriously
and we need people to OC with respect and pride not the BECAUSE I CAN attitude.
I understand you can and I do but I do it to for convenience and to protect myself.

eastmeyers · Sep 21, 2010

I am glad my rant did not fall onto deaf ears! Thank you so far to:
WARCHILD
Bikenut
autosurgen
eb31
Beerme
Bronson
PDinDetroit

Bronson · Sep 21, 2010

eastmeyers said:
I am glad my rant did not fall onto deaf ears! Thank you so far to:
WARCHILD
Bikenut
autosurgen
eb31
Beerme

You can add me to that list.

Oh crap, I'm agreeing with Beerme...isn't that a sign of the apocalypse? :lol::lol:

Bronson

incident at Fowlerville Wal Mart

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