Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Need links or a copy/paste of AG and MSP OC in PFZ opinion

  1. #1
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Need links or a copy/paste of AG and MSP OC in PFZ opinion

    Simple enough..

    I know somewhere someone's got a copy of the Attorney General opinion and the Michigan State Police letter regarding open carry in Pistol Free Zones.

    Can anyone link them or at least post them by chance so I don't have to dig heavily?
    Last edited by malignity; 09-21-2010 at 09:49 AM.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  2. #2
    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Allegan co Michigan, USA
    Posts
    345
    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Simple enough..

    I know somewhere someone's got a copy of the Attorney General opinion and the Michigan State Police letter regarding open carry in Pistol Free Zones.

    Can anyone link them or at least post them by chance so I don't have to dig heavily?
    hope this helps thru in Federal also.

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0947--,00.html
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...2----000-.html
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...0_I_20_44.html
    Last edited by quarter horseman; 09-21-2010 at 10:18 AM.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    RTM, Lake Linden, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    232
    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm

    Found a few posts below this one titled "Michigan Important Document." It clearly spells out what you are looking for near the bottom regarding CPL PFZ's only applying to concealed carry.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Simple enough..

    I know somewhere someone's got a copy of the Attorney General opinion and the Michigan State Police letter regarding open carry in Pistol Free Zones.

    Can anyone link them or at least post them by chance so I don't have to dig heavily?
    MOC has this on their homepage, but it seems to be taken off-line???? At least it wont come up for me.

    But below are the basics.

    Any 18-yr. old or older, law-abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a legally registered handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.
    WHY OPENLY CARRY A FIREARM?
    To protect yourself.
    To protect your family.
    To protect your rights.
    It’s a faster draw.
    It’s more comfortable in warm weather.
    It’s a crime deterrent.

    WON’T I BE A TARGET IF I OPEN CARRY?
    There is no documented evidence that this has happened to a citizen while open carrying a handgun. Data shows that criminals avoid victims they know are armed.
    WON’T THIS BEHAVIOR SCARE PEOPLE?
    Of the thousands of hours people have open carried in Michigan we have found that no one reacts in a hysterical manner. Our data suggest most times a 911 call is made is by an off- duty police officer. Most police encounters are instigated by officers themselves and complaints were not by the public.

    The lawful open carry of a firearm is not cause for a charge of brandishing or disturbing the peace.
    ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by it self threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.
    BRANDISHING A.G.Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002:…In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. The term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, Attorney General
    PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act. (This is ANY place that sell alcohol, Kroger, gas station, etc.) (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d
    ) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.
    ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.
    No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.
    In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    An AG opinion, Senator Prusi, and the MSP stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d.Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.
    “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"
    “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.” Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

    ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self-defense / firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.
    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in Michigan. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well-versed in firearm law.
    FOR MORE INFO SEE WWW.MIOPENCARRY.ORG
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    There is a bunch of work going on with the website which is why some links are slow or not working. It is temporary and has to do with the coming roll out of the new website.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  6. #6
    Regular Member Jerbear1098's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Redford Michigan
    Posts
    50
    "It isn't that Liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so" --Ronald Reagan

  7. #7
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    There is a bunch of work going on with the website which is why some links are slow or not working. It is temporary and has to do with the coming roll out of the new website.
    I figured it was something like that. Can't wait.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  8. #8
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101
    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I figured it was something like that. Can't wait.
    I think you'll also like the document myself and autosurgeon are working on. Though a bit lengthy, it'll cover the vast majority of OC as a whole in a comprehensive guide, including WRR, places to carry, etc.





    On another note, I have to read the AG opinion in entirety, but I think that's it; just glanced through it before work, and I am noticing that it's talking about police officers in the beginning. Hopefully it explains that this isn't just for them. I'll look more once I'm able to; hopefully sometime on my lunch break.

    I'm still looking for the specific Michigan State Police letter that was written to someone by a ranking officer from the MSP regarding OC in a PFZ with a CPL and his interpretation; stating that it is in fact legal to do so. The bulletin will help, but I know there's a letter around here somewhere. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I remember, but Im not sure if I've still got it. If I do, I'll let you know.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    On another note, I have to read the AG opinion in entirety, but I think that's it; just glanced through it before work, and I am noticing that it's talking about police officers in the beginning. Hopefully it explains that this isn't just for them. I'll look more once I'm able to; hopefully sometime on my lunch break.
    I believe it refers to reserve officers, who really have no more authority than anybody else since they are not usually considered "peace officers" by the sate.


    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    I'm still looking for the specific Michigan State Police letter that was written to someone by a ranking officer from the MSP regarding OC in a PFZ with a CPL and his interpretation; stating that it is in fact legal to do so. The bulletin will help, but I know there's a letter around here somewhere. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?
    I think Venator has a copy.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I believe it refers to reserve officers, who really have no more authority than anybody else since they are not usually considered "peace officers" by the sate.

    Bronson
    i always hated that part of that opinion. it is not crystal clear. people will just say "well this refers to reserve officers... you are not a reserve officer..."

    i wish that they would do an all inclusive crystal clear opinion.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228
    i absolutely HATE the synopsis:

    "It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code."

    i hate the "uniformed reserve officer" part.

    i would love a clearer opinion without that part.

    maybe to a lawyer this conveys something about a regular civilian with a CPL. but a regular person will not see this opinion for anyone but a uniformed reserve police officer.
    Last edited by ElectricianLU58; 09-22-2010 at 08:26 AM.

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    I think you'll also like the document myself and autosurgeon are working on. Though a bit lengthy, it'll cover the vast majority of OC as a whole in a comprehensive guide, including WRR, places to carry, etc.





    On another note, I have to read the AG opinion in entirety, but I think that's it; just glanced through it before work, and I am noticing that it's talking about police officers in the beginning. Hopefully it explains that this isn't just for them. I'll look more once I'm able to; hopefully sometime on my lunch break.

    I'm still looking for the specific Michigan State Police letter that was written to someone by a ranking officer from the MSP regarding OC in a PFZ with a CPL and his interpretation; stating that it is in fact legal to do so. The bulletin will help, but I know there's a letter around here somewhere. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?
    It's in the brochure in its entirety.

    “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”
    Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy

    Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section
    (517) 336-6441
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  14. #14
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    i absolutely HATE the synopsis:

    "It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code."

    i hate the "uniformed reserve officer" part.

    i would love a clearer opinion without that part.

    maybe to a lawyer this conveys something about a regular civilian with a CPL. but a regular person will not see this opinion for anyone but a uniformed reserve police officer.
    Gun free zone. You don't need the AG opinion on this, it's already in the statutes. The opinion only supports what the statutes say. What don't you understand. It's clear that a person with a CPL can possesses a gun in all the places listed in .234d (except courts) but they must carry openly as concealed carry is unlawful in some of those places.



    As for the AG opinion on brandishing:

    Look at it in it's entirety and remember words mean things.

    "Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

    It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

    Regardless: This means that even if the person is or is not a LEO that carrying a handgun in a holster is NOT brandishing. Clear.

    Finally she writes "...by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code,..."

    It is clear whether you are a LEO, a reserve officer (Non-LEO) or anyone else (you and I) that a handgun in a holster in plain sight is NOT brandishing.

    I hope this is more clear now.
    Last edited by Venator; 09-22-2010 at 09:07 AM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    i absolutely HATE the synopsis:

    "It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code."

    i hate the "uniformed reserve officer" part.

    i would love a clearer opinion without that part.

    maybe to a lawyer this conveys something about a regular civilian with a CPL. but a regular person will not see this opinion for anyone but a uniformed reserve police officer.
    alternatively: This means anyone with a CPL. It does not just refer to LEOs.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228
    it is just poorly worded. the sentence begins with "and if the officer...".

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    i absolutely HATE the synopsis:

    "It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code."

    i hate the "uniformed reserve officer" part.

    i would love a clearer opinion without that part.

    maybe to a lawyer this conveys something about a regular civilian with a CPL. but a regular person will not see this opinion for anyone but a uniformed reserve police officer.
    Michigan Reserve officers have no more "police powers" than the average citizen. They are not "Peace Officers" in Michigan... that is the point that needs to be understood. Most Police Officers know that, and many "citizens" do too.
    Yes, it would be "nice" if the opinion was written differently. However, the AG is limited to answer the question as asked. The question as asked was: whether a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within a "gun-free zone" established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. Therefore, the answer was limited to a uniformed, unpaid reserve officer. It is the ONLY way the question can be answered. It does make it easier, though, if you understand that reserves are given no other "powers" than you or I have.
    BTW... this is what further erodes any logic in the PFZs... by expanding exemptions to "non" professional people brings the whole argument of LEOs being the ONLY exception into question.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •