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Thread: No OC @ Waterford Schools

  1. #1
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    No OC @ Waterford Schools

    I was picking up my daughter from a Waterford schools daycare a few weeks ago, and was later called at home by the superintendent(?). He told me that Waterford schools has a no weapons policy, and that If I returned to the schools with my gun that I would be arrested. Some of you would love to see that happen I'm sure, but put those feelings aside for a bit, this problem is much bigger than "stainless1911". We're talking about a very large school district, and the waterford police seem to be misinformed as well.

    I explained to the super or whoever he was, that I had a CPL, and could therefore open carry in the schools. He didn't care. I told him about the MCLs related, 227, 425o and 234d, and explained to him how they work together to allow OC with a CPL, but he wasn't convinced. He alluded to the federal 1,000 foot rule, and said their policy was based off of this. I explained to him that there was an exemption for CPL holders in the federal law, and also explained to him our preemption law, but to no avail. He persisted to tell me that if I returned to the school that I would be arrested, and that he was going to inform everyone who worked for the district that they were to call the police on anyone with a gun in school.

    I asked him to follow up with the Waterford Police Department, thinking that he would listen to them instead of me. I called him back a couple of weeks later to see what they told him. He informed me that I would indeed be arrested on a misdemeanor charge under 227, despite the fact that I had made it very clear that I was a CPL holder.

    So, as it is right now, since I "have been informed", and the schools staff has likely been told about this incident, there is no OC at Waterford Schools.

  2. #2
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    I did, at one point, refer to the AG opinion on this subject.

  3. #3
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Looks like you need to go talk to the Cheif of Police, and show him the laws, then have him call the super in front of you.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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  4. #4
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Looks like you need to go talk to the Cheif of Police, and show him the laws, then have him call the super in front of you.
    And it might help to add the magic words, "I'm trying to avoid the school district from putting your city at risk of a civil lawsuit. Can you help?"

    Let us know how it goes. If you get no progress, don't go ahead and exercise your rights and get arrested. It's best to maintain control of the legal process, so report back here and we'll discuss next steps if need be.
    Last edited by DanM; 09-21-2010 at 05:22 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    well, my question is, are you going back to Waterford schools and open carrying? or are you leaving your gun in the car?

    cause the way you talk about flexing your rights, I expect you to be at that school in the morning with your lawfully carried gun?

  6. #6
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    I don't plan on OCing there until I can do it without getting arrested, I've got better sense than that. I was hoping to solve this quickly and appropriately. I want everyone who chooses to exercise their rights to be able to do so without incident.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Unless you are simply picking up and dropping off (not exiting your vehicle and not parked for an extended period of time) I'd like to know where it's legal to carry on any school property.
    Show me where it isn't. I will try to find the cite. I thought it was 227, there is an exception for CPL holders. 28.425o specifies concealed carry except parking lots, and 234d only mentions day cares.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I am aware that in Tn
    guess where we are.
    Michigan!
    Not Tennessee, guess what that means.
    DIFFERENT LAWS


    I would think that since the principle asked you not to carry on school grounds that would fall.under the same as a private business owner asking you to leave.....
    Schools are not private, at least Waterford school district isn't a private school. it is public which is why our tax money goes to it
    making it public property that is not federal so you think wrong.

    Or, you could force the issue just to flex your carrying muscles and he could post signs everywhere, make such a big deal that other local businesses begin to post...thus you would make things harder for other law abiding permit holders and defeat the purpose of everything we've accomplished to date.
    take your arrogant attitude out of here

    thought id help you out stainless
    too many arrogant fools with heads full of crap lately

  9. #9
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Im looking into Michigan laws and the Federal statute. I am aware that in Tn you cannot carry, oc or cc, on school grounds with the exception of dropping or picking a child....provided the weapon is not being handled and you do not leave your vehicle.

    I would think that since the principle asked you not to carry on school grounds that would fall.under the same as a private business owner asking you to leave.....

    Or, you could force the issue just to flex your carrying muscles and he could post signs everywhere, make such a big deal that other local businesses begin to post...thus you would make things harder for other law abiding permit holders and defeat the purpose of everything we've accomplished to date.
    I am pretty sure (don't quote me, I'm sure someone will confirm or deny soon) that a public school is unable to ask you to leave with your firearm same as city council. and this is only for OC with CPL.

    but stainless doesn't practice the same views he preaches, I hope he keeps this in mind in future posts.

    I don't mean that there is something wrong with leaving it in the car, but if I recall you're one of the biggest "no one is gonna push me around if I'm
    legal. everyone else should do the same" guys on the board. in any case, good luck.

  10. #10
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    it is legal. the 1,000 foot rule is beaten not once but twice in MI law, the first is you permit to purchase a pistol, since you have a CPL you are exempt from the pistol free zones. includeing schools. and if the waterford school you are refering to is a public school paid for by public funds and you are on there property they can't ask you to leave! its the same as anyother public place! library, council hall, park! its paid for with public funds!

    i agree with dan bring it up to the chief of police, tell them you are trying to keep the city from a costly law suit, have with you all the information about the laws and how they allow you to carry on public school property. see how that goes. if your blown off then bring it up here and we can see what the next step would be. don't get arrested, as long as your not jailed you are in the better position, they have to prove themselves! not the other way around!

  11. #11
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    Thanks Beerme.

    Kyle, I realize the importance of this issue, I don't plan on screwing this up for everyone else.

  12. #12
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I suggest you watch your tone. Internet tough guys routines only go so far before one day you're not protect by your monitor.

    Just a friendly word of advice.
    ignored...

  13. #13
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    I'll try to get hold of the Waterford Police Chief this week, and Ill post what I find out. Waterford government can be a little, difficult.

  14. #14
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    not a problem but threats are not cool, and personal digs aren't cool either! we have a pretty close nit group here, cooler heads prevail and all that.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Per federal law we do not have to follow the 1000' rule because we have both purchase permits and CPLs

    Gun free school zone act of 1990

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    Exception: This does not include possession of a firearm on private property that is not part of school grounds or possession of a loaded firearm by an individual who is licensed to do so by the State. (i.e. a concealed carry, weapon, or firearm permit).

    In Michigan:
    750.237a refers to gun free school zones - exempt if you have a CPL

    28.425o states you can not carry a CONCEALED pistol on the property(exception of pk lot dropping off picking up)

    The 2 laws work together just like 28.425o does with 750.234d. It forces you to OC with a CPl as your only legal way to carry.

    Macomb County and St. Clair County prosecutors are both educated on this. If anyone needs suggestions or would like to talk on addressing these issues feel free to contact me.

    I never advise asking for permission before legally carrying. With that being said be aware that out of all the PFZ's this is the one where people will react negatively the most and LEOs are more likely to let the courts figure it out.

    Those asking for clarification on the law should consider that lack of knowledge can get you in trouble really quick in this situation.
    Last edited by sprinklerguy28; 09-21-2010 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #16
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    Thanks SG28. I was thinking 227, you're right with 237. Simple mistake. I knew the law, but wanted to go print it out for reference,.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Unless you are simply picking up and dropping off (not exiting your vehicle and not parked for an extended period of time) I'd like to know where it's legal to carry on any school property.
    SG28 found it.

    Sec. 237a.

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I suggest you watch your tone. Internet tough guy routines only go so far before one day you're not protected by your monitor.

    Just a friendly word of advice.



    I really hope you're not serious.

    im with Dougwg on this one
    ignored

  19. #19
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I suggest you watch your tone. Internet tough guy routines only go so far before one day you're not protected by your monitor.

    Just a friendly word of advice.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I was picking up my daughter from a Waterford schools daycare a few weeks ago, and was later called at home by the superintendent(?). He told me that Waterford schools has a no weapons policy, and that If I returned to the schools with my gun that I would be arrested. Some of you would love to see that happen I'm sure, but put those feelings aside for a bit, this problem is much bigger than "stainless1911". We're talking about a very large school district, and the waterford police seem to be misinformed as well.

    I explained to the super or whoever he was, that I had a CPL, and could therefore open carry in the schools. He didn't care. I told him about the MCLs related, 227, 425o and 234d, and explained to him how they work together to allow OC with a CPL, but he wasn't convinced. He alluded to the federal 1,000 foot rule, and said their policy was based off of this. I explained to him that there was an exemption for CPL holders in the federal law, and also explained to him our preemption law, but to no avail. He persisted to tell me that if I returned to the school that I would be arrested, and that he was going to inform everyone who worked for the district that they were to call the police on anyone with a gun in school.

    I asked him to follow up with the Waterford Police Department, thinking that he would listen to them instead of me. I called him back a couple of weeks later to see what they told him. He informed me that I would indeed be arrested on a misdemeanor charge under 227, despite the fact that I had made it very clear that I was a CPL holder.

    So, as it is right now, since I "have been informed", and the schools staff has likely been told about this incident, there is no OC at Waterford Schools.
    Just a suggestion, in the future if someone calls you on a matter like this, demand their name and title. This would make things a lot easier to follow up on. Who is to say this isn't some parent or line level employee trying to start something???

  21. #21
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Unless you are simply picking up and dropping off (not exiting your vehicle and not parked for an extended period of time) I'd like to know where it's legal to carry on any school property.
    Expanding on what sprinklerguy28 said...




    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.Sec. 5o.
    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.
    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.
    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.
    (c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.
    (d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.
    (e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.
    (f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.
    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.
    (h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.
    (i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.
    (5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:
    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.
    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.
    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.


    History: Add. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 719, Eff. July 1, 2003 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 194, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 406, Imd. Eff. Jan. 6, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 407, Eff. Apr. 6, 2009
    Popular Name: CCW
    Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
    Popular Name: CPL
    Popular Name: Right to Carry
    Popular Name: Shall Issue

    2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan
    Last edited by malignity; 09-21-2010 at 09:55 PM.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  22. #22
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    Waterford

    Stainless as a fellow OC er i spend alot of time in waterford and the police are very aware of OC in michigan if you would like someone to go with you i have no problem with that and maybe we ca n get some coffee afterwards.

  23. #23
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    Sure They are less likely to blow off more than one. I'll look into setting an appointment with the chief.

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    meeting

    just let me know when i know where the station is

  25. #25
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    i would say hold off, and see where your call to the chief of police goes. then if needed then a visit with the chief. and who was it exactly who called you? and said you would be arrested?

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