No OC @ Waterford Schools

I was picking up my daughter from a Waterford schools daycare a few weeks ago, and was later called at home by the superintendent(?). He told me that Waterford schools has a no weapons policy, and that If I returned to the schools with my gun that I would be arrested. Some of you would love to see that happen I'm sure, but put those feelings aside for a bit, this problem is much bigger than "stainless1911". We're talking about a very large school district, and the waterford police seem to be misinformed as well.

I explained to the super or whoever he was, that I had a CPL, and could therefore open carry in the schools. He didn't care. I told him about the MCLs related, 227, 425o and 234d, and explained to him how they work together to allow OC with a CPL, but he wasn't convinced. He alluded to the federal 1,000 foot rule, and said their policy was based off of this. I explained to him that there was an exemption for CPL holders in the federal law, and also explained to him our preemption law, but to no avail. He persisted to tell me that if I returned to the school that I would be arrested, and that he was going to inform everyone who worked for the district that they were to call the police on anyone with a gun in school.

I asked him to follow up with the Waterford Police Department, thinking that he would listen to them instead of me. I called him back a couple of weeks later to see what they told him. He informed me that I would indeed be arrested on a misdemeanor charge under 227, despite the fact that I had made it very clear that I was a CPL holder.

So, as it is right now, since I "have been informed", and the schools staff has likely been told about this incident, there is no OC at Waterford Schools.

I did, at one point, refer to the AG opinion on this subject.

Looks like you need to go talk to the Cheif of Police, and show him the laws, then have him call the super in front of you.

eastmeyers said:

Looks like you need to go talk to the Cheif of Police, and show him the laws, then have him call the super in front of you.

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And it might help to add the magic words, "I'm trying to avoid the school district from putting your city at risk of a civil lawsuit. Can you help?"

Let us know how it goes. If you get no progress, don't go ahead and exercise your rights and get arrested. It's best to maintain control of the legal process, so report back here and we'll discuss next steps if need be.

Unless you are simply picking up and dropping off (not exiting your vehicle and not parked for an extended period of time) I'd like to know where it's legal to carry on any school property.

well, my question is, are you going back to Waterford schools and open carrying? or are you leaving your gun in the car?

cause the way you talk about flexing your rights, I expect you to be at that school in the morning with your lawfully carried gun?

I don't plan on OCing there until I can do it without getting arrested, I've got better sense than that. I was hoping to solve this quickly and appropriately. I want everyone who chooses to exercise their rights to be able to do so without incident.

eb31 said:

Unless you are simply picking up and dropping off (not exiting your vehicle and not parked for an extended period of time) I'd like to know where it's legal to carry on any school property.

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Show me where it isn't. I will try to find the cite. I thought it was 227, there is an exception for CPL holders. 28.425o specifies concealed carry except parking lots, and 234d only mentions day cares.

stainless1911 said:

Show me where it isn't. I will try to find the cite. I thought it was 227, there is an exception for CPL holders. 28.425o specifies concealed carry except parking lots, and 234d only mentions day cares.

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Im looking into Michigan laws and the Federal statute. I am aware that in Tn you cannot carry, oc or cc, on school grounds with the exception of dropping or picking a child....provided the weapon is not being handled and you do not leave your vehicle.

I would think that since the principle asked you not to carry on school grounds that would fall.under the same as a private business owner asking you to leave.....

Or, you could force the issue just to flex your carrying muscles and he could post signs everywhere, make such a big deal that other local businesses begin to post...thus you would make things harder for other law abiding permit holders and defeat the purpose of everything we've accomplished to date.

eb31 said:

I am aware that in Tn
guess where we are.
Michigan!
Not Tennessee, guess what that means.
DIFFERENT LAWS


I would think that since the principle asked you not to carry on school grounds that would fall.under the same as a private business owner asking you to leave.....
Schools are not private, at least Waterford school district isn't a private school. it is public which is why our tax money goes to it
making it public property that is not federal so you think wrong.

Or, you could force the issue just to flex your carrying muscles and he could post signs everywhere, make such a big deal that other local businesses begin to post...thus you would make things harder for other law abiding permit holders and defeat the purpose of everything we've accomplished to date.
take your arrogant attitude out of here

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thought id help you out stainless
too many arrogant fools with heads full of crap lately

eb31 said:

Im looking into Michigan laws and the Federal statute. I am aware that in Tn you cannot carry, oc or cc, on school grounds with the exception of dropping or picking a child....provided the weapon is not being handled and you do not leave your vehicle.

I would think that since the principle asked you not to carry on school grounds that would fall.under the same as a private business owner asking you to leave.....

Or, you could force the issue just to flex your carrying muscles and he could post signs everywhere, make such a big deal that other local businesses begin to post...thus you would make things harder for other law abiding permit holders and defeat the purpose of everything we've accomplished to date.

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I am pretty sure (don't quote me, I'm sure someone will confirm or deny soon) that a public school is unable to ask you to leave with your firearm same as city council. and this is only for OC with CPL.

but stainless doesn't practice the same views he preaches, I hope he keeps this in mind in future posts.

I don't mean that there is something wrong with leaving it in the car, but if I recall you're one of the biggest "no one is gonna push me around if I'm
legal. everyone else should do the same" guys on the board. in any case, good luck.

Beerme said:

thought id help you out stainless
too many arrogant fools with heads full of crap lately

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I suggest you watch your tone. Internet tough guy routines only go so far before one day you're not protected by your monitor.

Just a friendly word of advice.

it is legal. the 1,000 foot rule is beaten not once but twice in MI law, the first is you permit to purchase a pistol, since you have a CPL you are exempt from the pistol free zones. includeing schools. and if the waterford school you are refering to is a public school paid for by public funds and you are on there property they can't ask you to leave! its the same as anyother public place! library, council hall, park! its paid for with public funds!

i agree with dan bring it up to the chief of police, tell them you are trying to keep the city from a costly law suit, have with you all the information about the laws and how they allow you to carry on public school property. see how that goes. if your blown off then bring it up here and we can see what the next step would be. don't get arrested, as long as your not jailed you are in the better position, they have to prove themselves! not the other way around!

Thanks Beerme.

Kyle, I realize the importance of this issue, I don't plan on screwing this up for everyone else.

eb31 said:

I suggest you watch your tone. Internet tough guys routines only go so far before one day you're not protect by your monitor.

Just a friendly word of advice.

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ignored...

I'll try to get hold of the Waterford Police Chief this week, and Ill post what I find out. Waterford government can be a little, difficult.

NHCGRPR45 said:

it is legal. the 1,000 foot rule is beaten not once but twice in MI law, the first is you permit to purchase a pistol, since you have a CPL you are exempt from the pistol free zones. includeing schools. and if the waterford school you are refering to is a public school paid for by public funds and you are on there property they can't ask you to leave! its the same as anyother public place! library, council hall, park! its paid for with public funds!

i agree with dan bring it up to the chief of police, tell them you are trying to keep the city from a costly law suit, have with you all the information about the laws and how they allow you to carry on public school property. see how that goes. if your blown off then bring it up here and we can see what the next step would be. don't get arrested, as long as your not jailed you are in the better position, they have to prove themselves! not the other way around!

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Thanks for clearing that up. As someone who visits Michigan, Minnesota and Illinois often I like to try and keep up with different state laws. Not an easy task.

not a problem but threats are not cool, and personal digs aren't cool either! we have a pretty close nit group here, cooler heads prevail and all that.:lol:

Per federal law we do not have to follow the 1000' rule because we have both purchase permits and CPLs

Gun free school zone act of 1990

(1) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
Exception: This does not include possession of a firearm on private property that is not part of school grounds or possession of a loaded firearm by an individual who is licensed to do so by the State. (i.e. a concealed carry, weapon, or firearm permit).

In Michigan:
750.237a refers to gun free school zones - exempt if you have a CPL

28.425o states you can not carry a CONCEALED pistol on the property(exception of pk lot dropping off picking up)

The 2 laws work together just like 28.425o does with 750.234d. It forces you to OC with a CPl as your only legal way to carry.

Macomb County and St. Clair County prosecutors are both educated on this. If anyone needs suggestions or would like to talk on addressing these issues feel free to contact me.

I never advise asking for permission before legally carrying. With that being said be aware that out of all the PFZ's this is the one where people will react negatively the most and LEOs are more likely to let the courts figure it out.

Those asking for clarification on the law should consider that lack of knowledge can get you in trouble really quick in this situation.

Thanks SG28. I was thinking 227, you're right with 237. Simple mistake. I knew the law, but wanted to go print it out for reference,.