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Thread: cops n 'OCers in wisconsin

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    cops n 'OCers in wisconsin

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    Last edited by mik253; 10-23-2016 at 12:57 AM.

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    I don't understand what the RAS was! LEOs can NOT stop you just because you are carrying. You must have committed, or are about to commit a crime they witnessed in order for them to have a LEGAL reason to stop you.

    This should've NEVER happened.

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    Regular Member March Hare's Avatar
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    From the Wisconsin forum

    Here's the thread that documents the event.
    Good people, good reading.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-OCers-tonight.

    Fight the good fight!

    -MH

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    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    It has been an amazing thread to read, and listen to. I'm currently listening to the audio from today's radio interview with an OCDO member.

    I'm thinking maybe we should try to start an organization similar to Wisconsin Carry, Inc. That is unless there is already one in place.

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    Why can't we have an organization like WCI? Oh yeah, we've got the WAC. LOL!

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Why can't we have an organization like WCI? Oh yeah, we've got the WAC. LOL!
    I sincerely hope that is a joke.
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    I sincerely hope that is a joke.

    The real joke is that WAC is just about the only organization in Washington State that is formally organized and lobby's for gun rights almost exclusively within the State.

    Before the Internet groups like WAC were about the only way for people to get together and express their views and have them taken to politicians. Today, people would rather sit at their computer and complain. Ask them to formally organize, get together and elect leaders, pay dues, etc. and everyone "has something else to do with their time.

    I sure don't agree with a lot of WAC's actions but who else is there in Washington State. NRA, SAF, CCRKBA, seem to have more of a "National Agenda".

    Perhaps there is an opportunity to form a more "formal" organization of those that support the right's of ALL that wish to carry a firearm, Concealed OR Open.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    The real joke is that WAC is just about the only organization in Washington State that is formally organized and lobby's for gun rights almost exclusively within the State.

    Before the Internet groups like WAC were about the only way for people to get together and express their views and have them taken to politicians. Today, people would rather sit at their computer and complain. Ask them to formally organize, get together and elect leaders, pay dues, etc. and everyone "has something else to do with their time.

    I sure don't agree with a lot of WAC's actions but who else is there in Washington State. NRA, SAF, CCRKBA, seem to have more of a "National Agenda".

    Perhaps there is an opportunity to form a more "formal" organization of those that support the right's of ALL that wish to carry a firearm, Concealed OR Open.
    Some people are joiners, others...not so much. I am a professional non-profit association executive director and do this for a living.

    If there is interest, I would be willing to lead a "strategic planning session" to help people understand the scope of what this concept looks like when applied...and the resources (volunteer, financial, legal) to make it acutualize...

    The moderator said we have about 1,200 in WA signed up, with as many as 3,000 that have been involved over time....

    This is more than enough to begin, even if only 25% actually act on the opportunity to formalize a state OC organization.
    Last edited by jt59; 09-22-2010 at 12:25 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    A meet up to sketch out the needs/costs of an actual organization would be of interest to me, we seem to have a bunch of folks very well versed in the rcw's would be nice to have a better framework to hang any actions on

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    /raises hand to show interest.

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    One might find more and wider support if such organization was a carry organization with open carry as one of it's thrusts instead of limiting it just open carry...
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Some people are joiners, others...not so much. I am a professional non-profit association executive director and do this for a living.

    If there is interest, I would be willing to lead a "strategic planning session" to help people understand the scope of what this concept looks like when applied...and the resources (volunteer, financial, legal) to make it acutualize...

    The moderator said we have about 1,200 in WA signed up, with as many as 3,000 that have been involved over time....

    This is more than enough to begin, even if only 25% actually act on the opportunity to formalize a state OC organization.
    I am interested, just let me know. I agree with Tomas on the carry organization part as long as OC is a definant department of the whole, good thinking Tomas.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    I am interested, just let me know. I agree with Tomas on the carry organization part as long as OC is a definant department of the whole, good thinking Tomas.
    All part of the process...first step is to guage interest...next is to identify some "ambassadors" and then to hold a series of "stakeholder" (our monthly meet and greets) meetings to articulate purpose...over some period of time to listen to the folks this organization would seek to represent.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by mik253 View Post
    http://www.infowars.com/citizens-cop...-in-wisconsin/

    Anyone else find the statement "certainly the law in this state is that you can have Oc, its your second amendment right and we respect that but we still need to find out what people are doing when they walk around with guns on there hips" contradictory?
    Well, yes, of course it is a contradiction.

    Its main purpose, though, is to sneak in the idea that cops have some special authority to seize people to "find out what people are doing" absent genuine reasonable articulable suspicion. Keep putting that idea across, and it becomes (has become?) accepted. Then, most folks won't fuss, and some will even agree.

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    I am interested also.

    If we can get enough support from the dry side of the state, maybe we could have a meeting somewhere near Ellensburg? That is about as central as we could get for the entire state. Just a suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    All part of the process...first step is to guage interest...next is to identify some "ambassadors" and then to hold a series of "stakeholder" (our monthly meet and greets) meetings to articulate purpose...over some period of time to listen to the folks this organization would seek to represent.
    We tried that after the meeting/dinner @ Manu's restaurant ....... failed miserably... got shot down....
    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 09-23-2010 at 06:46 AM.

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    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    If you folks are not following, the Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is filing a fast tracked federal lawsuit against the Madion, WI Police Department.

    This will be worth following.

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    If you guys form an organization like WCI, I'll join to help you guys out as much as possible.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Things to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    We tried that after the meeting/dinner @ Manu's restaurant ....... failed miserably... got shot down....
    Ok, so (some) of the folks at the dinner meeting didn't think it was a good idea, how many were there? ....and is that representative of the feelings of the entire group of people that may wish to be involved?

    How long ago was this?....has anything changed in the politics, progress, momentum or demographics of the group (like we got way bigger, or the "lurkers" are showing up by the dozens.

    It is important to the process of guaging interest to do it in a number of different forums, and a number of different ways....you also have to do it over time (go slow), to allow for the people that are regularly monitoring activity to those that only visit occasionally...

    A lot of times, these ideas of organization, jump straight to the conclusion of structure and beauracracy and how it "won't work". Its often based on peoples personal experience with other organizations that are pretty ineffective or have lost their way (think about peoples rants or support to the NRA on this forum).

    Keeping an open mind and letting the process develop the discussion of establishing the needs....which looks at how things are working now vs how they might...allows everyone to be heard. Something may emerge, maybe not....but if you just shoot down the idea from the get go, you never know what good may have come from it.

    Resistance to change is about as natural as it gets....you can look at that personally or in nearly any of the relationships or activities that you are in (employer, gov't, clubs, teenagers)....

    Anyway,

    The initial question could be as simple as "Do you think there could be value in formalizing an organization to represent this specific segment of the gun community?"...if the answer is Yes, then take the next step, if NO, then OK, stop.

    Once you've established that the interest is high enough (you'll need 50+ people willing to get it started and then 150-300 people to make it "survivable" and 300-1000 to make it sustainable) depending on what it's focus is and how much it costs.

    Questions that come later develop a "needs analysis" of folks from the intial question:

    "Yes, but, that depends on (pick your response)"...and then you begin to frame the issues.

    It could be:

    Education (community)
    Segment representation (Ie: CC vs OC or...CC and OC, to common issues)
    Training Opportunities
    Legislative representation
    Political advocacy (pic-nics)
    Legal support
    Cool Logo wear

    ...whatever.

    ...and then you see if these are the things that are important enough to "organize" around....if not, then OK, you stop.

    My experience with managing over 250 employees in my past working life and participating in various volunteer organizations with as many as 5,000 members, is that people join and participate in companies and organizations for three basic reasons (IMO)...

    They have something to contribute
    They hope to affect change
    They get some recognition or satisfaction out of what they are doing.

    They stay because all of the above are satisfied over time. The sustainability of the organization, employer, gov't, volunteerism or whatever is linked in its ability to consistently meet all those basic needs concurrently....otherwise, they don't step up, lose interest, get bored, quit donating, and/or go away.

    There will always be detractors and supporters and those in the middle waiting (the "independents" in the upcoming election) for some impetus to make a decision...but in some ways, it's the nature of the growth of a grass roots movement into something else...IMO - it doesn't need to be "either/or" as much as "both/and"...

    It's the beauty of a bell curve...and the saying "lead, follow, or get out of the way"...

    ....looking forward to your feedback!
    Last edited by jt59; 09-23-2010 at 02:46 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    I would like (to be part of) an organization that can be called upon in the event of a situation similar to what happened in WI: staff that can be immediately summoned to respond with press releases and other forms of public education, fact finding (FOIA), hosting/publishing of electonic media, and legal action.

    I would pay money to be part of such a thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I would like (to be part of) an organization that can be called upon in the event of a situation similar to what happened in WI: staff that can be immediately summoned to respond with press releases and other forms of public education, fact finding (FOIA), hosting/publishing of electonic media, and legal action.

    I would pay money to be part of such a thing.
    Exactly! The Wisconsin Carry group has been on top of this current Madison 5 incident from the initial phone call DURING the event.

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Madison alder declares constitutional freedoms to be ‘childish’

    Our site administrator has written a nice article about this...



    Madison alder declares constitutional freedoms to be ‘childish’
    September 25th, 2010 3:39 pm CT
    By John Pierce, Minneapolis Gun Rights Examiner
    ________________

    The ‘Madison 5’ incident continues to spread ripples across Wisconsin as the city and the police department struggle to defend their actions.

    Background

    Last Wednesday I wrote about the fact that the Wisconsin courts have not only held that a person may not be charged with obstruction for refusing to identify themselves but that "no reasonable person could believe that the obstruction statute includes within its terms persons who fail to identify themselves. Nor could a reasonable person determine that any other statute authorizes the arrest of persons for refusing to state their names. ... Hence, the deputies in this case are not entitled to qualified immunity." Henes v. Morrissey, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995).
    I also wrote about the fact that, facing suits against both the city and the individual officers under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 (deprivation of rights under color of law), the obstruction charges were quickly dropped. However, in a publicly released memo which appears clearly designed to have a chilling effect on the free exercise of rights in Madison, police chief Wray announced that all five law-abiding citizens who were open carrying that night would be charged with disorderly conduct.

    According to the memo, these charges are based solely upon the proposition that the citizen who called police was ‘disturbed’ by seeing the men exercising their rights. Mike Stollenwerk, DC Gun Rights Examiner, immediately demonstrated the falsity of this argument in his Friday article in which he included the 911 call from the supposedly ‘disturbed’ citizen wherein she stated that “there’s no problem and it’s no emergency . . .I feel bad then, if they’re not doing anything wrong then it’s my mistake.”

    The legal analysis

    Ultimately, when the dust settles from these five cases, Madison will have lost badly … and so will the taxpayers of the city. Even a first year law student will tell you that one cannot be charged with a crime for the peaceful exercise of a constitutional right even if a citizen is unreasonably fearful of such an exercise (which was not the case here). And in the case of Wisconsin, the right to bear arms is a state constitutional right backed up by the Second Amendment to the US Constitution which was held to be incorporated against the states via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment in the recently decided case of McDonald v. Chicago.

    Amazingly, in his memo, Chief Wray states that “the city’s disorderly conduct statute does not require an actual disturbance to take place, only that the conduct in question is of a type that tends to cause or provoke a disturbance.” And while that may be true of the statute, local statutes do not operate in a vacuum, nor do they have the power to abrogate constitutional rights. In fact, the Supreme Court has specifically noted that ‘constitutional rights may not be denied simply because of hostility to their assertion or exercise.’ Bachellar v. Maryland 1969 WL 120235. And as a general constitutional principle, such a statute would be held to be unconstitutionally void-for-vagueness in any case, both lacking an intent requirement and failing to give adequate notice of what conduct is thus prohibited.

    Going forward

    A number of Wisconsin citizens have apparently attempted to start a dialog with the Madison City Council in an effort to achieve a legislative solution to the threats by Chief Wray to arrest all open carriers for disorderly conduct. And while such an effort is one which I normally recommend, it seems as if the City Council is just as hostile to civil rights as the police department but with considerably less professionalism.

    In one example, a Wisconsin citizen named Brent Hancock emailed his concerns about the recently released memo to the Madison alders indicating that he would no longer shop in Madison until the issue was addressed. Madison alder Lauren Cnare (District 3) responded with the following:
    ________________

    Have a good time staying at home. While legal, it's inappropriate and aggressive to pack your little pistols in public places. We won't miss you or the childish displays of constitutional freedoms.

    Lauren Cnare - District 3 Alder

    ________________

    Amazingly enough, the writer of this childish taunt is a public relations and communications professional in her day job.

    I must ask … Is this the kind of person the citizens of Madison want representing them? After all, anyone who would speak of constitutional freedoms with such vitriol and bigotry is clearly unworthy of public office.


    District 3 Alder Lauren Cnare

    ORIGINAL ARTICLE here: http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...to-be-childish
    Last edited by Tomas; 09-27-2010 at 03:15 AM. Reason: added link
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

  23. #23
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    I am all for a WA state carry group. I have done 4+ years of nonprofit work (where I lived off donations). I do it for God first and country second. I think in the political time we are in right now, we need to be organized or we will lose our rights quickly.

    I am in 100%

    I would be willing to join as a leader to help lead. I don't, unfortunately, have time to be the MAIN guy. Though I played that role in my 4 years of ministry, I am too busy to take it on right now. I can and will, however, help out in a major role should we decide anything. It sounds like JT has the most experience in gauging this type of activity, so let us know what your wisdom foresees, and we shall take it from there!

    Joe~

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    I would like to specifically point out that the man cited for obstruction of justice was not only cited for something similar in Racine, WI earlier... he settled out of court with the city of Racine for $10,000.

    Someone please explain to me how his $10,000 paycheck from the city advances the cause.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Quote Originally Posted by killchain View Post
    I would like to specifically point out that the man cited for obstruction of justice was not only cited for something similar in Racine, WI earlier... he settled out of court with the city of Racine for $10,000.

    Someone please explain to me how his $10,000 paycheck from the city advances the cause.

    Because it allows for him to be able to afford a lawyer and further go after these type of people???

    (just playing Devil's advocate here...although it is possible...probably not probable though...)
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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