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Thread: Breaking off into Radical and not-so-radical?

  1. #1
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    Post Breaking off into Radical and not-so-radical?

    After some recent discussions with some organizations, groups and the people in them, I picked up a piece of information that I'm hoping someone can either confirm as true or simple rumor.

    In an attempt to muster support for my quest to combat the "local park" restrictions that are popping up, I was surprised to hear that there is information circulating about the "open-carry" people breaking apart into the radicals and not-so-radicals. This was not specifically about this website, simply mentioned as a general "open-carry group".

    This information was just another reason why these people aren't overly excited to offer help or support.

    While I try to fight the thought that these local ordinances and park restrictions are "open-carry" issues, instead of 2A issues, this type of information only makes it harder.

    So, with that in mind...

    Has anyone heard of this "breaking off"?

    If there is any merit to this information, I think it's important for all of us here to be informed of what is going on and why.

    Thanks in advance for any input or information!

    Jay

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    im not meaning any one person in particular, however there are some people on here that do bother me as being radicals. Im all for using every extent of the law as you can, but some people are purposely trying to overstep boundaries that are actually logical but there stand point is every LEO and politician that doesnt support open carry in the most ridiculous places for obvious reasons is evil.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Firstly, I'd like to say that I've seen no evidence for a split on the open carry issue. Unless they are talking about open carriers more "radical" position than other gun rights groups.

    Elvenhome,
    Would you like to share some examples on what YOU define as radical? That's really the problem here with that ambiguous label. One mans normal and necessary is anothers radical and ridiculous. I bet I could find something that you believe that I find is radical.
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    'Divide and conquer' always works.

    Shall I list again the various names of the "pro-gun" movement in Wisconsin? Which of us is Jim Fendry, Dick Baker, Gene German, Graff, Hoffman, Gold, or any of the other would-be and wanna-be leaders, each of which needs his own platoon to command.

    OC, CC, ccw, permit, fee, et cetera, all divide us, now, into "radical" and "not-so-radical". Being of a conservative bent, I'd rather be a reactionary.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    'Divide and conquer' always works.

    Shall I list again the various names of the "pro-gun" movement in Wisconsin? Which of us is Jim Fendry, Dick Baker, Gene German, Graff, Hoffman, Gold, or any of the other would-be and wanna-be leaders, each of which needs his own platoon to command.

    OC, CC, ccw, permit, fee, et cetera, all divide us, now, into "radical" and "not-so-radical". Being of a conservative bent, I'd rather be a reactionary.
    Good example of the division right here. Those who do, those who complain.

    As for a "split" in "Open Carry" my bet is your sources are "instructors" or NRA hot dogs.

    Example: No permit carry is in the state GOP platform. Walker has publicly stated he would sign a direct repeal of 941.23 (Ban on Concealed Carry). So WHY, when the NRA leadership was in the Madison area the other day, WHY did the NRA push permitting for WI?

    WI will be a BILLION dollars in the hole. Money is tight at every level of government, and I don't want higher taxes. Why does the NRA?

    If there is a divide, it is between the REPEAL 941.23 (FREEDOM) model and the NRA (PERMIT) model. That's the divide.

    The solution is for the NRA, and their state organization WI-FORCE to JOIN on the side of freedom. If the NRA were to state support for FREE CARRY, NO PERMIT, CONSTITUTIONAL, whatever you want to call it, we would have it signed, sealed, and delivered by May 2011.

    I'd say the NRA is the divide and they are the ones spreading the false rumor so they, like government, can maintain their control.

    I'll be proven WRONG when the NRA supports and condones FREE (NO PERMIT) CARRY for WI. Until then, there will ALWAYS be a divide.

  6. #6
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    I agree BNH. If being able to exercise a right free of charge is radical, then count me in. Most of us have even made the choice to be somewhat discreet by carrying handguns which are relatively unobtrusive. We could legally carry a shotgun if we would so choose.

    The other gun rights groups are not about overall gun rights. They are in bed with the highly regulated agencies that enforce the regulations of activities that use firearms for very specific purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    Good example of the division right here. Those who do, those who complain.

    As for a "split" in "Open Carry" my bet is your sources are "instructors" or NRA hot dogs.

    Example: No permit carry is in the state GOP platform. Walker has publicly stated he would sign a direct repeal of 941.23 (Ban on Concealed Carry). So WHY, when the NRA leadership was in the Madison area the other day, WHY did the NRA push permitting for WI?
    I don't want to sit here and point fingers or call out names. I simply want to know if there is this division among "us".

    It was specifically mentioned that the "open-carry group" is splitting up into the radicals and not-so-radicals. This was not about the entire group vs the NRA.

    I completely agree with your comments about the NRA supporting CC with a permit. I did attend the meeting in Richfield at Cabelas. The NRA spoke about getting CC in WI with permitting and training. They stated they would not go directly for Constitutional Carry because we haven't had anything close to it, so they wouldn't get it passed because it would "scare" off everyone. They wanted to take the logical approach to getting something passed successfully and THEN work on improving.

    I completely disagree with that statement and their stance on this.

    I think that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard anyone say in a long time.

    Will I change their minds before it comes time to present that bill...probably not.

    Why do I still support the NRA, I'm not sure, I feel they are doing some good, perhaps not everything they should.

    Why do I NOT have a membership to WI-Force...I've been asked that many times, they do not support open-carry, or if they do, they're very good at making it look like they don't.

    Perhaps a review of my membership in the NRA is in order, but regardless...

    This comment was simply about the "open-carry group" breaking off amongst themselves. I'm curious if this is true or not for a couple of reasons.

    1. I think everyone here should know if it happens and why.
    2. I would like to know if it happens and why so I can make a choice about who to follow along with.
    3. If it's not happening, then I wish to go back to my "source" and "slap" him/her. (Not physically slap, so none of that assault talk)

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    And yes, I was OC'ing at the meeting in Richfield.

    I was very disappointed to see no-one else OC'ing.

    There was a gentlemen in front of me that had his holster on, but stated it wasn't easy to OC alone, thus it being empty.

    Very disappointing across the board.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    This is what I was talking about in my earlier post:

    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Exactly.

    This is what I've said in several other threads. There are those OC'ers, some members of this very forum, that go out armed and specifically seek to antagonized the general public, anti's and police. Whether it be bringing an AR-15 to a family restaurant (which is radical in my common sense playbook), performing open carry litter pick up (when you've more than likely never picked up a piece of trash any other time in your life) or posting up in front of a public place armed with no obvious reason for being there.

    All of the actions above have happened, are still happening and are extremely counterproductive.

    All it is doing is succeeding in making the entire carry, OC & CC, appear to be irrisponsible, radicals who cannot control themselves or their behavior.

    I for one do not want to be associated with anyone who feels the need to go stand on a street corner armed just to show he can. It's juvenile and immature. And as I said, its hurting the very right they think they are protecting.
    How is a litter pickup radical, antagonistic, or counterproductive?
    The whole point is to educate the public that it's legal and I think that's pretty good. Without these pickups and picnics would we be where we are in this state today? No, I don't think so, we'd still be in the stoneage of carry.

    Was it radical for a guy to plant a tree with a handgun on his hip?
    Was it radical for a guy to go shopping at Menards and Walmart with one?
    Is it radical for someone to have intimate relations with their significant other with the lights on?

    In any case, you may find it radical, I may not. It's completely arbitrary.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 09-22-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    3 guys walking down the street picking up trash, with loaded firearms, while video taping...has and will continue to get the police called. COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

    The motorist that drove by saw an armed man standing there with a black plastic bag and frantically called 911 is no more "educated" now than my pet Lab. There are better ways to go about it...i.e planned organized events, picnics etc
    As far as I am aware, the highway trash pickups have never had any bad interactions.
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    I agree with you when you are talking generally about this entire forum. There will always be people that do things that may be detrimental to the cause. But there are plenty of people who THINK that open carry itself is detrimental to the cause. That's right; in their eyes you are a crazy radical.

    Also, each state is different. If some trailblazers wouldn't have done some of the things they did in this state we would still be getting written up for DC if we even thought about OC'ing. There were plenty of people who thought they were radical too.

    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Who likes the Jehova Witness' beating on the door every week? Nobody
    What if you are Jehova Witness?

    Who like televangelists shoving Christianity down your throats? Nobody
    Without it we wouldn't have the "farting preacher" on youtube.

    Who likes the homeless guy trying to clean your windshield (with dirty rags) at a red light? Nobody
    What about a holeless guy with a clean rag?

    Who likes the guy standing outside your grocery store shoving pamphlets at everyone? Nobody
    Are the pamphelts for good deals and free stuff? Then I'll take one!
    I, like you, hope my point doesn't fall on deaf ears as well.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 09-22-2010 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I see your point, I see both sides of the coin..I really do.

    The problek I see is that all of the ppl who are going out armed for no other reason but to get attention....will find it. Negative attention. Already the police are finding ways around it...with disorderly conduct etc. Kimberguys one video...they got him for littering. And so on...WE DONT NEED THIS NEGATIVE ATTENTION.

    No need to swap a hornets just just because you can. Common sense goes a long way.
    Disorderly conduct cannot be enforced in WI unless the person is actually being disorderly.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/43302252.html

    Nik Clark (Wisconsin Carry President) just did two interviews with McKenna (yesterday and today) about people not giving their names to police for "fear" of what those officers might do to them.

    Also, in the state of WI, if you don't already know this, we have no legal means to conceal carry. We only have open carry (with a lot of hoops to jump through). I don't know of a single person who carries for attention, but I can only speak for myself on this. I carry for my personal protection. Even in my city, with the "quick" response time of police of a few minutes, they could be there just in time to chalk my body. I've said this before and I'll say it again, "When second count, police are minutes away."
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I see your point, I see both sides of the coin..I really do.

    The problek I see is that all of the ppl who are going out armed for no other reason but to get attention....will find it. Negative attention. Already the police are finding ways around it...with disorderly conduct etc. Kimberguys one video...they got him for littering. And so on...WE DONT NEED THIS NEGATIVE ATTENTION.

    No need to swap a hornets just just because you can. Common sense goes a long way.
    OK, I can see your point too. But I still have a question, and this is the burning one.....

    Where do we draw the line?

    Or should I say.....

    Where do we draw the line on the exercise of a fundamental right?

    Everyone's line will be drawn in a different place.
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    Sometimes its necessary to push the average Joe out of his comfort zone to educate him.

    Now in La Crosse county when someone calls police dispatch with AMWAG complaint the dispatcher asks what the man with the gun is doing. If he is acting within the law there is no investigation and the dispatcher notifies the concerned citizen that the OCer is not breaking any laws.

    The guys eating in Culvers will push the Madison police to deal with Ocer's more carefully next time especially if the case goes to court and there are damages awarded.

    As I have stated in the past, there are places that we are not welcome that we should not push our way into but each individual and group has to make the choice themselves on those locations and venues.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I believe there are 2 sub camps. 1, which I belong to, wants unrestricted Constitutional Carry. The 2nd group wants permitted, training required.

    Now, even though I am in group 1 and will advocate strongly for that position with my elected officials, I am not so militant that I would want Walker to veto any cc law that didn't meet my perfect world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    Good example of the division right here. Those who do, those who complain.

    As for a "split" in "Open Carry" my bet is your sources are "instructors" or NRA hot dogs.

    Example: No permit carry is in the state GOP platform. Walker has publicly stated he would sign a direct repeal of 941.23 (Ban on Concealed Carry). So WHY, when the NRA leadership was in the Madison area the other day, WHY did the NRA push permitting for WI?

    WI will be a BILLION dollars in the hole. Money is tight at every level of government, and I don't want higher taxes. Why does the NRA?

    If there is a divide, it is between the REPEAL 941.23 (FREEDOM) model and the NRA (PERMIT) model. That's the divide.

    The solution is for the NRA, and their state organization WI-FORCE to JOIN on the side of freedom. If the NRA were to state support for FREE CARRY, NO PERMIT, CONSTITUTIONAL, whatever you want to call it, we would have it signed, sealed, and delivered by May 2011.

    I'd say the NRA is the divide and they are the ones spreading the false rumor so they, like government, can maintain their control.

    I'll be proven WRONG when the NRA supports and condones FREE (NO PERMIT) CARRY for WI. Until then, there will ALWAYS be a divide.
    Well, one thing to think about is the fact that most states will not honor a non-resident carrying unless they have a permit.

    Also, while Constitutional Carry is the most desirable and philosophically I think that is what all should have, the reality is that in Wisconsin we are not going to go from a ban on concealed carry to allowing concealed carry without some kind of permitting system and likely a training requirement. If you want to insist upon that and refuse all other alternatives then we will continue to be a state that does not allow concealed carry.

    Finally, the NRA bashing really gets to be tiresome here. I know some of you don't like the NRA and I am aware that NRA does and has done things we do not like or agree with; after the 5th or 6th or 10th time you go through that here the expression "beating a dead horse" applies, get over it and move on. I am a lifetime member of NRA; there are a number of recent events and decisions involving NRA that I disagree with, but I continue to support them as they are in my opinion still a positive force in Washington, D.C. for firearms rights. In the 1970's the political environment was such that we were in very real danger of losing the ability to even own handguns in this nation; NRA was on the front lines and managed to prevent handgun bans in most states and municipalities. Without that we wouldn't even be able to argue the merits of permitting vs constitutional carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    I really dont see it in terms of drawing a line. Or winning and losing etc.

    There is a way to educate the avg. citizen, unknowledgable LEO etc...in a productive, responsible manner. I do it daily. I open carry everywhere it is legal. When jane or joe blow citizen asks me why I carry or whatever...I communicate to to them why I carry and why I feel everyone should carry. Often it winds up being a decent conversation and hopefully gets them to think. All this while shopping with my 2 daughters (3 & w yrs old). How bad could a armed, big tattooed guy be with 2 little adorable girls...shopping in Walmart? As I said ...perception is key to getting any message across.

    Now...should me and a few buds decide to just strap up and march around town, with witty signs and t-shirts, with no true direction....just because we can.....that is irresponsible, antagonistic and just looking for negative attention. The general public will sheepishly be intimidate by what appears (remember...perception is key) to the "irradict" behavior by several armed men. The police will arrive...more bad perception to passerby's. And, the police will now be watching for the "crazies" with guns.


    Make no sense to me at all. Why push the issue to it's max when it is your right and you are legal? Just go about your business on a daily basis and deal with the occasional LE problem...why go looking for additional problems.

    It's like my grandmother told me when I was 5."Don't be a bully and go looking for trouble. But..if a fight finds you, don't back down. Ever."

    Sound advice even 31 years later.


    These so-called activists like Ridley, Kwik, Kimberguy...etc are doing nothing to help. They are hurting OC.
    But you did draw a line. You can call it what you want but you gave a version of behavior that is acceptable to you and what is not acceptable to you.

    Not being from Wisconsin, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt as far as not knowing what has went on around here but people "marching" around in groups was exactly what Wisconsin needed to get the movment going. Without the picnics, trash pickups, and media attention we wouldn't be anywhere near where we need to be.

    Once people stop getting harrased by LEO and the right is recognized across the whole state I agree that it can be toned down a knotch or two.

    I also like your grandmothers advice. In this case I think she would agree that the "fight" has found us and we aren't backing down. If there wouldn't have been the initial few "out looking for trouble" (if looking for trouble means exercising your constitutional rights) everyone would still be worried about getting arrested every time they stepped out their door OC.

    This isn't ancient history in Wisconsin, it's like 2 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I believe there are 2 sub camps. 1, which I belong to, wants unrestricted Constitutional Carry. The 2nd group wants permitted, training required.

    Now, even though I am in group 1 and will advocate strongly for that position with my elected officials, I am not so militant that I would want Walker to veto any cc law that didn't meet my perfect world.
    There another "camp" that sees the big picture and all sides of the argument. There are pluses and minuses to both restricted and moderately unrestricted carry as well as good and bad about mandated training.

    It worries me that any idiot with 100 bucks will be able to pick up a Saturday night Special and carry it legally.

    It also bothers me that someone would need 2 to 300 bucks for mandated training and permitting.

    Is there an easy answer here? I've wrestled with the questions and I don't think so.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    In support of my previous post, see this bull-puckey........

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Culvers-OCers!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    There another "camp" that sees the big picture and all sides of the argument. There are pluses and minuses to both restricted and moderately unrestricted carry as well as good and bad about mandated training.

    It worries me that any idiot with 100 bucks will be able to pick up a Saturday night Special and carry it legally.

    It also bothers me that someone would need 2 to 300 bucks for mandated training and permitting.

    Is there an easy answer here? I've wrestled with the questions and I don't think so.
    What is a "Saturday Night Special?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    What is a "Saturday Night Special?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberator_pistol

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    Based on the outpouring of support for the Madison-5, I can tell you that WE are NOT seeing two, three, or four camps. Rather, we are seeing one solid movement towards FREEDOM!

    Carry On!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    Based on the outpouring of support for the Madison-5, I can tell you that WE are NOT seeing two, three, or four camps. Rather, we are seeing one solid movement towards FREEDOM!
    The excitement about this too will pass and we will be back to slogging it out in the trenches in an attempt to sway public opinion and politicians to put forward acceptable legislation.

    The Madison incident is great PR though if all the actors will play their parts correctly. The cops and the DA couldn't have acted more stupidly that is for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by icepik View Post
    While I try to fight the thought that these local ordinances and park restrictions are "open-carry" issues, instead of 2A issues, this type of information only makes it harder.
    They are even more accurately, WI State Constitutional issues. WI law is bound by the WI State Constitution. Our Right to Bear Arms for ANY LAWFUL PURPOSE is affirmed by it....

    PREAMBLE
    We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for
    our freedom, in order to secure its blessings, form a more perfect
    government, insure domestic tranquility and promote the general
    welfare, do establish this constitution.
    ARTICLE I.
    DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
    Right to keep and bear arms. SECTION 25. [As created
    Nov. 1998] The people have the right to keep and bear arms for
    security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

    [1995 J.R. 27, 1997 J.R. 21, vote November 1998]
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-24-2010 at 08:42 AM.

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