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Thread: OC at County-City building in Tacoma

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    OC at County-City building in Tacoma

    I am about to go to the county city building in Tacoma with a friend to get his CPL. I'll have video going, and gogodawgs wanted to attend as well. PM sent, hopefully we'll have an uneventful visit. Will report back with results.


    My phone decided to not record everything, apps crashed and force closed. I need a standalone recorder.
    Last edited by .45ACPaddy; 09-22-2010 at 06:17 PM. Reason: added last line

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    Best of luck guys!

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    Video will be viewable at http://www.qik.com/45ACPaddy

    Not sure if it streams it live but I'll set it to public.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    Video will be viewable at http://www.qik.com/45ACPaddy

    Not sure if it streams it live but I'll set it to public.
    cool, but a little short!
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    I don't know what was going on with my phone but it force closed the video recording app. Same with my audio recording app. So here's what happened as best as I can remember.


    I entered the first floor and informed them I had a carry piece to check in, they told me to go around to the back of the building and enter on the second floor, so I did. When I got there, I informed them I had to check in my carry piece, they told me to wait between the two entrance doors and they'd call me in. I must have waited 10 minutes before an officer came. He then informed me that he would disarm me and have me fill out a form. He said "So you're one of those open carry guys, huh?" To which I responded "When the weather permits. If it's crappy weather I won't go out of my way to tuck my jacket behind it, but when there's nice weather like today, I won't roast myself to death by wearing a jacket. It's personal preference." He then pointed out the different parts of the form and told me I would need to hand over my ID and CPL. I told him I didn't have them on me. He asked how I got there.

    (This is where I could have done better, it's quite different when you're actually in the situation than when you're armchair quarterbacking, LOL!)

    I told him I left them in a friend's car which I have no access to. He asked where my friend was, I told him elsewhere. He asked what my business was there and I informed him my friend was applying for his CPL and wanted me to be there with him. He asked if I was going to encourage my friend to open carry, I told him that I'll tell my friend about it but it's his choice. He gave me the usual worn out spiel about OC making you a target, causing panic, etc. He told me we had a bit of a problem, because he was going to give me a card, and they would be holding my valuable weapon and valuable holster, but if some schmuck got a hold of that card, the schmuck would be able to give them the card and run off with my gun since they have no ID or CPL. He then said it wasn't a state law that was the reason for them asking for ID and CPL, but it was a building policy, and asked if I understood. I told him I understood where they were coming from. I was strongly thinking of bringing up state preemption under RCW 9.41.290, but knew I wasn't getting anywhere with this guy. He then said he would go and unload my weapon and package it and return it to me. He left.

    I was then forced to stand there probably another 10 minutes completely unarmed and defenseless. At no point was I allowed to enter past the security checkpoint. I was standing between the two entrance doors the entire time.


    He brought back a brown paper bag, inside was my 1911 and another bag containing my empty mag and all 11 rounds. He made sure to point out each item. My 1911 was in its holster with the retention strap snapped in place, cocked, and the safety was OFF… He said not to reholster or load my gun outside so I didn't cause a panic and they wouldn't get any 911 calls. He also said he would escort me to the car but because of the unusual circumstances of me not having access to it, he couldn't. I asked how I was supposed to rearm myself and if there was anywhere I could go, he told me I would have to figure it out for myself.


    I think a whole new can of worms has been opened. We'll see where this goes.


    If one thing is for sure, I'm definitely not happy about the situation. There were a few moments where I could have brought up a few things, such as that the card would be my sole responsibility, that they were in violation of RCW 9.41.290, etc. Yes, I should have responded "In a legal manner" when asked how I got there. It's quite different when placed in the situation. I'll definitely be contacting Gray Peterson for some help with this. This is not over.


    I'll keep everyone updated. I know that gogodawgs is gonna be sitting on the edge of his chair waiting for more info :P

    *commence flood of responses*

    Keep responses respectful!
    Last edited by .45ACPaddy; 09-24-2010 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Clarifying some things

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    great story!

    I think you did a great job...it sounds like you had him off balance as much as not....he's probly' not ever had this situation thrown at him before, so hopefully he'll bring it up at the next staff meeting....

    ...and it sounds like you learned a little better how to handle yourself too! Nothing wrong in that.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    I wish I had the whole recording, my description of events would be much more detailed. When he was going on with the "OC is bad" spiel he laid out a situation in a grocery store. BG sees grandma with a cane, mom with her kids, and then me. Said the BG would instantly go for me. I told him about the Kennesaw story.

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    I think what PaTTy did was horrible! Irreprehensible even! How dare he take a LOADED gun into a building full of cops?!!! Doesn't he know that the cops coulda shot him and gramma coulda gotten hit by a stray bullet???!!!! Does he EVER think?


    LOL

    Just kidding, I think it was handled to the best of his abilities at the time, and he did learn a little something about himself too...
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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    This unloading personal weapons and not letting you reload needs to be addressed with someone in charge. Time for me to do some research.

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    Regular Member Genken's Avatar
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    Yeah, my droid has failed me at the worst of times as well.

    But hey, seeing as though I'm not a "heat of the moment" kinda thinker, I think you did pretty good.
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    I'm curious as to what Gray Peterson has to say about this, I'm looking forward to his input!

    I 100% agree with you, M1. I think, if anything, that officer safety would be the exact opposite of what is being practiced when they unload citizens' carry pieces. There's countless types of handguns out there, and I don't imagine there's a single person on Earth who knows the ins and outs of operating every single one of them safely. Given, the 1911 is a very common platform, and the officer was carrying one, but I'd venture to go as far as to say that any time that anyone handles a loaded gun, they risk a negligent discharge. Safe handling and strictly adhering to the basic rules of firearms safety minimizes this risk, but the risk is always there, no matter how small. We are human, after all, and we are fallible. So by unloading someone's gun, or even one's own, the risk of a negligent discharge is being taken. That's why we handle our sidearms minimally. It's either in the holster, on the nightstand, or pointing downrange. In my opinion, it would be safer to take the holster off with the gun still in it and leave the retention mechanism undisturbed and the gun loaded.

    There were several moments where I decided it would be better to keep my mouth shut rather than bringing up the obvious violation of RCW 9.41.290, as well as responding to the LEO's claims of causing panic with something along the lines of "Well if they see you standing right there, and see that nothing is happening, what reason would they have to panic?"

    On a side note, does anyone have an audio or video recorder that they would be willing to donate or sell for cheap to a broke college student?

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    This unloading personal weapons and not letting you reload needs to be addressed with someone in charge. Time for me to do some research.
    Was this the shorter older deputy?
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    It was an older guy, bald, wore glasses. Boyce, maybe? I could be mistaken.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I know this is kind of like commen sense and doesnt belong in a city building, but if they have the capability to unload a weapon, eject a mag, and disarm you, couldnt they just kinda reverse the whole procedure?
    Oh, by the way I think you did a great job, espesially since he had already pointed out his disdain for you being one of those people.
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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    On a side note, does anyone have an audio or video recorder that they would be willing to donate or sell for cheap to a broke college student?
    Paddy, I have a recorder you can have. It's an older one, but downloads the files to a computer too! It's a decent unit. next time you are in the Oly area let me know. I usually have it on me all the time. I use my iphone now, I have a quick button to activate the recorder.

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    What was the obvious violation of RCW 9.41.290?

    Granted their procedures may not be the best and no one wants a lecture, but he didn't tell you couldn't have your gun and he didn't try to arrest or ticket you for anything. Per RCW 9.41.300 your weapon needs to be stored, but it doesn't detail the procedures such as loading, unloading, time frame, etc...

    I understand the whole process wasn't very customer friendly, but I am having a hard time understanding exactly which RCWs were violated.

    RCW 9.41.290, State preemption.
    "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality."


    From RCW 9.41.300, Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.
    "In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building."

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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    Paddy, I have a recorder you can have. It's an older one, but downloads the files to a computer too! It's a decent unit. next time you are in the Oly area let me know. I usually have it on me all the time. I use my iphone now, I have a quick button to activate the recorder.
    I was wondering which app you were using with your iPhone as I want to research options before buying one, and want it to be easy to use.
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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    I just use the voice memo app (iphone 4), but have the phone JB'd and have a quick toggle on an SBSsettings drop menu.

    I have the program to make it activate and start recording when you push both vol buttons at the same time (even in sleep), but it has issues...
    Last edited by massivedesign; 09-23-2010 at 03:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowski View Post
    What was the obvious violation of RCW 9.41.290?

    Granted their procedures may not be the best and no one wants a lecture, but he didn't tell you couldn't have your gun and he didn't try to arrest or ticket you for anything. Per RCW 9.41.300 your weapon needs to be stored, but it doesn't detail the procedures such as loading, unloading, time frame, etc...

    I understand the whole process wasn't very customer friendly, but I am having a hard time understanding exactly which RCWs were violated.

    RCW 9.41.290, State preemption.
    "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality."


    From RCW 9.41.300, Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.
    "In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building."
    The obvious violation would be putting up a rule that REQUIRES you to hand over ID and CPL when checking in a weapon. This is more restrictive and inconsistent with state law. I don't think it gets any more clear than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    I just use the voice memo app (iphone 4), but have the phone JB'd and have a quick toggle on an SBSsettings drop menu.

    I have the program to make it activate and start recording when you push both vol buttons at the same time (even in sleep), but it has issues...
    You lost me there a little bit. Maybe you could PM me some instructions so we don't spam the thread.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    The obvious violation would be putting up a rule that REQUIRES you to hand over ID and CPL when checking in a weapon. This is more restrictive and inconsistent with state law. I don't think it gets any more clear than that.
    Why not carry your ID and CPL if you have one? The whole issue of going sterile escapes me, you still are not required to show them except in a few occasions.
    The issue of ensuring you get your weapon back even if the check tag was lost would be to ones benefit.

    I am not implying someone else would have picked up your weapon but would give them pause in releasing your weapon to you until you could be identified.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Why not carry your ID and CPL if you have one? The whole issue of going sterile escapes me, you still are not required to show them except in a few occasions.
    The issue of ensuring you get your weapon back even if the check tag was lost would be to ones benefit.

    I am not implying someone else would have picked up your weapon but would give them pause in releasing your weapon to you until you could be identified.
    1st, Dave, I agree and carry with my ID/CPL and have gone through this building. They screen the entire building and not just the courthouse.

    However, let's for a moment examine a real possibility.

    A 5th grade teacher, female, 25 yo, 105lbs has a stalker. Not an ex or bf, but an aquaintenance she went to college with who is hung up on her. Her car/apartment was broken into and her ID is missing. Her father gives her a handgun for self defense and because she was brought up around them she is very familar with firearms. She understands open carry yet decides to go to the Pierce Co. building to apply for her CPL and file a restraining order with the court.

    Now what, she has no ID and no CPL. Should she leave the gun in the car down the block and travel unarmed to the building even though she has the right to defend herself?

    What about giving the firearm back unloaded and the magazine also unloaded and not letting you be able to defend yourself?

    I have been to this building twice (with ID/CPL) and my experience tells me that this is a power play by the sheriff and county executive. It is meant to discourage gun owners from checking in their weapon.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Why not carry your ID and CPL if you have one? The whole issue of going sterile escapes me, you still are not required to show them except in a few occasions.
    The issue of ensuring you get your weapon back even if the check tag was lost would be to ones benefit.

    I am not implying someone else would have picked up your weapon but would give them pause in releasing your weapon to you until you could be identified.
    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    1st, Dave, I agree and carry with my ID/CPL and have gone through this building. They screen the entire building and not just the courthouse.

    However, let's for a moment examine a real possibility.

    A 5th grade teacher, female, 25 yo, 105lbs has a stalker. Not an ex or bf, but an aquaintenance she went to college with who is hung up on her. Her car/apartment was broken into and her ID is missing. Her father gives her a handgun for self defense and because she was brought up around them she is very familar with firearms. She understands open carry yet decides to go to the Pierce Co. building to apply for her CPL and file a restraining order with the court.

    Now what, she has no ID and no CPL. Should she leave the gun in the car down the block and travel unarmed to the building even though she has the right to defend herself?

    What about giving the firearm back unloaded and the magazine also unloaded and not letting you be able to defend yourself?

    I have been to this building twice (with ID/CPL) and my experience tells me that this is a power play by the sheriff and county executive. It is meant to discourage gun owners from checking in their weapon.
    I was not suggesting one must have ID or CPL to check the firearm, nor was I suggesting one should disarm themselves ahead of time.
    If it was available then what is the issue.

    As to not allowing him to rearm himself I call BS as well, there is no requirement by law to prohibit it and is no more dangerous the the officer handling and unloading the firearm.
    In my opinion that was a request and he complied, there is an argument as to why he did not stand up for his rights other then he felt comfortable in not doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    The obvious violation would be putting up a rule that REQUIRES you to hand over ID and CPL when checking in a weapon. This is more restrictive and inconsistent with state law. I don't think it gets any more clear than that.
    According to your original post you were still able to check a weapon even though you didn't have your ID and CPL. The request for your ID and CPL may have been misinformed or improper by the officer, but the fact you were still able to check a weapon shows that RCW 9.41.290 was not violated. There is a difference between a request and a requirement. You knowing your rights shut the officer down and made him do the right thing.

    A letter/complaint to the people in charge explaining how the process was lacking would be justified. Accusing them of violating preemption when you were able to walk in with a weapon, check a weapon and leave with a weapon without being detained, arrested, ticketed or having to provide documents doesn't seem like the most effective tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowski View Post
    According to your original post you were still able to check a weapon even though you didn't have your ID and CPL. The request for your ID and CPL may have been misinformed or improper by the officer, but the fact you were still able to check a weapon shows that RCW 9.41.290 was not violated. There is a difference between a request and a requirement. You knowing your rights shut the officer down and made him do the right thing.

    A letter/complaint to the people in charge explaining how the process was lacking would be justified. Accusing them of violating preemption when you were able to walk in with a weapon, check a weapon and leave with a weapon without being detained, arrested, ticketed or having to provide documents doesn't seem like the most effective tactic.
    I disagree. HE was allowed to walk in with a weapon, check in a weapon, and leave with a pile of ammunition and a worthless chunk of metal. Thus leaving him unable to defend himself....
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
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