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Thread: Every gun is always loaded

  1. #1
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    Every gun is always loaded

    Now we know what is reported as happening to the St Joe cop
    http://www.kansascity.com/2010/09/22...ease-more.html

    A grim reminder to all of us to always assume that a gun will deliver death to whatever it is pointed at.

    And the official press release:
    http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2...filiate.81.pdf
    Last edited by peterarthur; 09-24-2010 at 12:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Yep, the first rule of gun safety is to ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Had this rule been followed, then this negligent discharge wouldn't have claimed the life of this officer.

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    Thats ridiculous. He needs to get no more of a weapon than a rape whistle after this display. A lesson hard learned and hard forgotten, I guess, but dammit, thats no small cost at all. I personally take a different view on this rule. I can unload a gun, have a partner verify its not loaded, and ITS NOT LOADED, there's no point insulting peoples intelligence in telling you its loaded. But I will agree, treat every gun as if it is loaded. Different opinion, same result: safe environment.
    Last edited by afcarry; 09-24-2010 at 01:26 AM.
    An individual should not choose the caliber, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong

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    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    Don't most simunition guns have a blue frame?

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    Sad reminder and a sigh of relief at the same time for me.

    Sad that protocols were not followed for their training and resulted in the loss of life of an officer. I still view this as LEO horseplay and you can bet that was the tone up until the realization was that he had actually shot one of his own. It's also sad that St. Joseph PD hid the truth from the media in the initial report to the media. Sad that the St. Joseph Chief isn't admitting that it was a protocol failure and horseplay that resulted in this death.

    The relief was that there wasn't another incident to report.


    Take specific note folks, the LEO that fired the shot hasn't been charged with involuntary manslaughter (yet) and I wouldn't expect him to be charged as they duly protect their own. You and I would have already been charged and would be sitting in jail or out on bail, so don't forget that they protect their own more than they will protect you the citizen.

    To top it all off, I have a training exercise coming up with simunitions and this particular incident in St. Joseph has me very nervous about participating.

    It's clear this was a protocol violation. Hopefully St. Joseph PD will have enough sense (and other departments in our country) to require that NO firearms be allowed to swap ammo nomenclatures/typologies at any point during a training series without the inspection and approval of a safety officer.
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-25-2010 at 12:32 AM.

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Did these guys drink their lunch?
    Last edited by Tomas; 09-24-2010 at 10:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Boy View Post
    Don't most simunition guns have a blue frame?
    If memory serves, the sim firearms (specifically duty pistols) are stock firearms. Some departments have colored frames and/or colored magazine floor plates to indicate "sim only" use. I could be wrong here, so someone please chime in if I am. I'm basing my response on my last sim use experience from 3+ years ago, I have another training session coming up next week so things might just be different.

    The MP5 sim kit will not allow you to even chamber a standard live round, it's set up to accept a specific simunition cartridge.

    Perhaps it's time for the manufacturers to come up with a kit to have the same safety protocol as the MP5 sim kit. It certainly would make sense.
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-25-2010 at 12:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    They are generally new barrels and magazines put into the weapons, or they just have guns specifically to be simunitions only.

    You are correct that sim guns will not chamber live rounds. The people in the story accidentaly held thought they're real firearms, were the training ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afcarry View Post
    Thats ridiculous. He needs to get no more of a weapon than a rape whistle after this display. A lesson hard learned and hard forgotten, I guess, but dammit, thats no small cost at all. I personally take a different view on this rule. I can unload a gun, have a partner verify its not loaded, and ITS NOT LOADED, there's no point insulting peoples intelligence in telling you its loaded. But I will agree, treat every gun as if it is loaded. Different opinion, same result: safe environment.
    Even when I see it unloaded, I view it as loaded until it is disassembled or open. It only takes one time to "know" it is unloaded to die. I know what you are saying and it is not an insult to anyone's intelligence. This was ingrained in me at a young age, I have taught it to my children and I have never had anything resembling a close call and I won't if I ALWAYS assume it is loaded, even when I unload it myself. This is firearms safety 101. When I remove a mag, clear and inspect the empty chamber, I still expect it to discharge when I dryfire it. This frame of mind, even lying to yourself, is erroring on the side of safety and would save thousands of lives if widely implemented. This is taking the idea of "treating every weapon as IF it is loaded" to it's logical extreme and can guarantee your safety. I know it seems overkill to some but better safe than sorry. Once you allow yourself to "know for a fact" that a gun is unloaded, you take the first step towards an accident. I know it is splitting hairs, sorry

  10. #10
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    There is no substitute for the NRA's Gun Safety Rules. Follow them, and you can be sure a injury or fatality will NEVER happen:

    1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
    This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

    2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
    When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.


    3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
    Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

    http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Take specific note folks, the LEO that fired the shot hasn't been charged with involuntary manslaughter (yet) and I wouldn't expect him to be charged as they duly protect their own. You and I would have already been charged and would be sitting in jail or out on bail, so don't forget that they protect their own more than they will protect you the citizen.
    And he gets away with it. No charges. I am absolutely furious with my county prosecutor!!

    http://www.newspressnow.com/news/201...icer-shooting/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    And he gets away with it. No charges. I am absolutely furious with my county prosecutor!!

    http://www.newspressnow.com/news/201...icer-shooting/
    Yea, if me or you accidentally did this to a buddy it would be our asses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    Yea, if me or you accidentally did this to a buddy it would be our asses.
    Lucky he wasn't trying to smuggle cigarettes illegally into the training
    http://www.newspressnow.com/news/201...22-2010/?local

    3 years for smuggling smokes.
    No jail or loss of job for shooting your partner.

    I am so confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur View Post
    Lucky he wasn't trying to smuggle cigarettes illegally into the training
    http://www.newspressnow.com/news/201...22-2010/?local

    3 years for smuggling smokes.
    No jail or loss of job for shooting your partner.

    I am so confused.
    The officer's dad is the Buchanan County Sheriff, who is a friend of the prosecutor. Too bad the prosecutor is running unopposed in Tuesday's election and the Sheriff isn't up for reelection for another two years. I wonder what would have been if the situation was different?

    The community is livid and it seems to me they could care less.

  15. #15
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    To the moderators

    Please close this thread . This is a very delicate situation which a lot of people dont understand. If it stays open there could be a lot of hostility here so please get rid of it. Thank you.
    Last edited by Marc; 11-08-2010 at 05:27 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    Please close this thread . This is a very delicate situation which a lot of people dont understand. If it stays open there could be a lot of hostility here so please get rid of it. Thank you.
    I'm curious, Marc, what's to not understand?

    Careless cop shoots another cop.

    Careless cop kills the other cop.

    Careless cop walks--no charges for his incompetence.

    Very embarrassing for St. Joseph PD, which allowed (and has now approved) the incompetence.

    What's your view on what happened, Marc?


    No charges in officer shooting

    By Kim Norvell

    Originally published October 22, 2010 at 3:42 p.m., updated October 22, 2010 at 11:05 p.m.
    No charges will be filed in the death of St. Joseph Police Officer Dan De Kraai.

    Buchanan County Prosecutor Dwight K. Scroggins announced Friday the investigation revealed Mr. De Kraai’s death was accidental.

    “There has been an extensive and ongoing investigation regarding the circumstances surrounding Officer De Kraai’s death. After reviewing all the information, it is clear there is insufficient evidence to support the filing of criminal charges,” Mr. Scroggins said in a press release.

    “The investigation reinforces Officer De Kraai’s death was a tragic, accidental shooting during a training exercise. There is nothing to support a determination of criminal negligence.”

    Police Chief Chris Connally said the announcement is “one more step” in moving the department forward and allowing officers to focus on supporting Mr. De Kraai’s wife and daughter.

    “We worked hard to make sure he had the information he needed to make the decision,” Mr. Connally said. “It still comes back to it was a tragic accident and our heart goes out to the family of Dan De Kraai.”

    Mr. De Kraai was accidentally shot after a training exercise by fellow officer Jason Strong. According to the police investigation, Mr. De Kraai wanted to know what it felt like to be shot by a Simunitions training round. Mr. Strong shot Mr. De Kraai in the back, not realizing he had changed to his assigned duty weapon.

    Mr. Strong is currently on light-duty status, Mr. Connally said. His “ultimate status” within the department will not be determined until the internal investigation is completed, which “still has a long way to go,” Mr. Connally said.

    The department is conducting an extensive internal review of its safety standards, including current and past training, personnel and procedures. Outside agencies will help with the investigation.

    According to the prosecutor’s press release, Mr. De Kraai’s wife, Laura, was involved in the process of reviewing the investigation and arriving at this decision.

    The family has no comment at this time, said Eric De Kraai, the brother of the fallen officer.

    http://www.newspressnow.com/news/201...icer-shooting/

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    I'm only gonna comment on this one time as an insider. This was a tragic accident and Jason Strong is suffering more than any legal punishment could do. He has to live with the fact that he killed one of his best friends by one careless move. When he obliged Dan's request to shoot him with simunition he failed to open the chamber and verify that he had the proper weapon before he fired. Everybody here is only going by what is reported in the news and the news here is Very inaccaurate and takes a very liberal anti gun approach to all things reported involving firearms. I knew Dan De Kraai personally and i know Jason Strong personally my cousin and my brother are both Police Officers and it infuriates me for people to make judgements based on the very rough drafted news reports. And Jason wasn't placed under arrest because he was never away from police supervision, he wasn't being watched as a flight risk though, he was being watched to make sure he didn't kill himself. And now im again going to ask the moderators please close this thread before it gets inflammatory

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    Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it should be closed. Sorry. There are people that have to live with the fact of what they did and still face involuntary manslaughter. Why should this case be different? That is what the public is asking.

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    Marc, I should have prefaced my earlier comment by saying that I'm very sorry that you lost someone you knew personally. My bad on that.

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    Ok and thanks for ur kind words of sympathy. Now we have to realize that not all cases of accidental shootings lead to charges filed. Read the St. Joe news just last week, a 17 year old shot and killed his best friend. He was arrested for investigation of unlawful use of a firearm, but only because when the cops showed up the only witness ran away becuz he had warrants on him. They released the 17 yr old later that day and filed no charges. True its still an open investigation but it looks pretty unlikely that charges will be pressed becuz there is no cause to believe a crime was commited. People get away with accidental shootings just as often as people get locked up for them

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HankT
    I'm curious, Marc, what's to not understand?

    Careless cop shoots another cop.

    Careless cop kills the other cop.

    Careless cop walks--no charges for his incompetence.

    Very embarrassing for St. Joseph PD, which allowed (and has now approved) the incompetence.

    What's your view on what happened, Marc?
    I'm only gonna comment on this one time as an insider. This was a tragic accident and Jason Strong is suffering more than any legal punishment could do. He has to live with the fact that he killed one of his best friends by one careless move. When he obliged Dan's request to shoot him with simunition he failed to open the chamber and verify that he had the proper weapon before he fired. Everybody here is only going by what is reported in the news and the news here is Very inaccaurate and takes a very liberal anti gun approach to all things reported involving firearms. I knew Dan De Kraai personally and i know Jason Strong personally my cousin and my brother are both Police Officers and it infuriates me for people to make judgements based on the very rough drafted news reports. And Jason wasn't placed under arrest because he was never away from police supervision, he wasn't being watched as a flight risk though, he was being watched to make sure he didn't kill himself. And now im again going to ask the moderators please close this thread before it gets inflammatory
    Yes, indeed, it was "one careless move." Very unprofessional.

    Very fatal.

    I'm not sure I see this "very liberal anti gun approach to all things" bias in the reporting on this subject. What I see is a clear description of the sweeping under the rug by the St. Joe PD and the city of this icky problem.

    Sorry for your loss, since you knew the deceased. It would serve his memory best if a complete investigation were completed and corrective action taken so that it doesn't happen again. That would simultaneously serve the interest of StJPD, since it looks pretty raggedy right now. Somebody should probably be fired for what happened.

    If you disagree with some of the points about this clearly negligent shooting, Marc, please do feel free to correct them and/or fill in the blanks.

    Oh, and based on your description of how Ofc. Strong "was being watched to make sure he didn't kill himself," um, isn't that one of the really persistent anti-gun arguments--that a person could get so pyschologically distraught that he/she would committ suicide with such a powerful implement?

    If Strong was in danger of committing suicide, I gotta wonder if someone had the good sense to take away his gun.

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