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Thread: You'd think they would have taken the night off after the first one

  1. #1
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    You'd think they would have taken the night off after the first one


  2. #2
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    I love this part:

    The store owner, who did not wish to be identified, is originally from Ethiopia, and told 7NEWS, "Where I'm from, you point a gun at me, I point a gun at you."

    Fools!

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    I live in Aurora (obviously) and have been in both of those liquor stores. I've also OC'd in one of them (the one owned by the Ethiopian gentleman) without incident. I'm glad to hear the employees defended themselves.

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    Be sure to congratulate them next time you're in.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Doah!

    From the article: "That clerk also pulled out a handgun and fired multiple rounds at the men as they fled the store."

    Very bad juju. That's called "attempted murder." It doesn't matter if they just robbed you at gunpoint. If they're leaving, let 'em leave.

    One MUST know the law, lest one breech it and wind up in jail or at the wrong end of a wrongful death lawsuit.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    From the article: "That clerk also pulled out a handgun and fired multiple rounds at the men as they fled the store."

    Very bad juju. That's called "attempted murder." It doesn't matter if they just robbed you at gunpoint. If they're leaving, let 'em leave.

    One MUST know the law, lest one breech it and wind up in jail or at the wrong end of a wrongful death lawsuit.
    The defendant, if he did not provoke the assault, is not obliged to retreat or flee to save his life, but may stand his ground, and even, in some circumstances, pursue his assailant until the latter has been disarmed or disabled from carrying into effect his unlawful purpose, and this right of the defendant goes even to the extent, if necessary, of taking human life. Boykin v. People, 22 Colo. 496, 45 P. 419 (1896); Enyart v. People, 67 Colo. 434, 180 P. 722 (1919).

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    From the article: "That clerk also pulled out a handgun and fired multiple rounds at the men as they fled the store.".
    TMK, the "suspects" came into the store with guns drawn while wearing masks. I think the "reasonable man" would feel the need to defend himself at the chance the thugs would have turned and fired on thier way out. We'll see what the DA and/or a jury have to say.

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    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, no details about the suspects other than suffering form GSW? Good reporting....

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    "...in some circumstances.
    There's the rub, and no, the circumstances were not met in this case, hence my comment.*

    If you want to risk being charged for shooting a fleeing robber (attempted) in the back, that's up to you. I'd rather be a good enough shot so that I don't miss while he's still facing me. Things are less complicated that way.

    *Regarding the "...disarmed or disabled from carrying into effect his unlawful purpose" For a robbery, the "unlawful purpose" is robbing the store. The moment the robber flees, that unlawful purpose has ended. As for the "disarmed" part, that's a judgment call, but you would have to be ready to convince the jury the fleeing robber was intending/planning on using the firearm for an unlawful purpose beyond the scope of the immediately thwarted robbery. Would charges be pressed? Probably not, but it's not something I'd risk with the rest of my life/freedoms if he were already fleeing out the door.

    For individuals such as the UT shooter, the VT shooter, or the Luby's shooter, whose unlawful purpose is to murder and create mayhem, their purpose continues whether they're coming towards you or running away from you. By all means, nail 'em any which way you can! At least here in Colorado... Can't speak for other states' laws.
    Last edited by since9; 09-29-2010 at 12:08 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    If you want to risk being charged for shooting a fleeing robber (attempted) in the back, that's up to you. I'd rather be a good enough shot so that I don't miss while he's still facing me. Things are less complicated that way.

    *Regarding the "...disarmed or disabled from carrying into effect his unlawful purpose" For a robbery, the "unlawful purpose" is robbing the store. The moment the robber flees, that unlawful purpose has ended.
    From my POV, as soon as I see someone with a mask and a gun in hand walking toward me, that's no lawful purpose. They're not exercising 2A and OCing. They're causing alarm and I'm in reasonable fear of my life. And I will open fire. If they turn to run, they'd better pray that I don't feel a threat from them even looking over their shoulder back at me. As a "reasobable person" I will justly conclude that their unlawful purpose is to shoot at me while fleeing. These aren't the guys escaping in a truck with a stolen trailer. They were armed assailants who'd already agressed.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 09-29-2010 at 04:55 PM.

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    If you want to risk being charged for shooting a fleeing robber (attempted) in the back, that's up to you.
    You are assuming that them "fleeing" means they turned and ran and were subsequently shot in the back. How do you know they did not turn around as they left, or that they did not back out of the store? You weren't there and the article does not have sufficient detail to make that kind of a judgment. The only security footage I've seen from the incident is from the first store, not the second (which is where they were shot).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    From my POV, as soon as I see someone with a mask and a gun in hand walking toward me, that's no lawful purpose.
    Terrific. Halloween is around the corner. Start blowing kids away based on your thin precept and see how long you rot in jail. You might even find a few adults cosmetically OCing in our Holliday's mix.

    But aside from he brandishing issue, what about skiers on a cold day? How about myself, as I both OC and wear a mask when the weather drops below about -5 deg F?

    THINK, people. Life is NOT so simple.

    They're not exercising 2A and OCing. They're causing alarm and I'm in reasonable fear of my life. And I will open fire.
    Based on their OCing?

    If they turn to run, they'd better pray that I don't feel a threat from them even looking over their shoulder back at me. As a "reasobable person" I will justly conclude that their unlawful purpose is to shoot at me while fleeing.
    Is this before or after you fired on them for their lawful exercise of their 2A rights to protect themselves?

    You post is not only full of alarmist comments, it contains actions which themselves would be considered felonious (meaning that if you acted on something of them, you'd probably go to jail).

    If I might make a suggestion, please visit your local LEO office, and read them verbatim what you posted herestating your belief in the same. Hopefully, they will help explain why some of what you posted is either illegal, immoral, or unethical.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Terrific. Halloween is around the corner. Start blowing kids away based on your thin precept and see how long you rot in jail. You might even find a few adults cosmetically OCing in our Holliday's mix.

    But aside from he brandishing issue, what about skiers on a cold day? How about myself, as I both OC and wear a mask when the weather drops below about -5 deg F?

    THINK, people. Life is NOT so simple.



    Based on their OCing?



    Is this before or after you fired on them for their lawful exercise of their 2A rights to protect themselves?

    You post is not only full of alarmist comments, it contains actions which themselves would be considered felonious (meaning that if you acted on something of them, you'd probably go to jail).

    If I might make a suggestion, please visit your local LEO office, and read them verbatim what you posted herestating your belief in the same. Hopefully, they will help explain why some of what you posted is either illegal, immoral, or unethical.
    I said "GUN IN *HAND*". Walking toward me GUN IN HAND. Turning toward me GUN IN HAND. How about you visit a LEO office GUN IN HAND and see how far YOU GET proposing your Halloween costume be GUN IN HAND or walking down the street in a mask on a cold day GUN IN HAND?

    You can't set "brandishing aside" as brandishing is the crux of the issue. DUH, if it's below zero and someone's OCing on their *HIP*, that's quite a bit different than brandishing isn't it?

    Crimeny, is it so dull in here that people need to look for reasons to pick fights?
    Last edited by mahkagari; 10-08-2010 at 03:12 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    I said "GUN IN *HAND*". Walking toward me GUN IN HAND. Turning toward me GUN IN HAND.
    No need to SHOUT (all-caps), mahkagari. This isn't just between you and I - there are a lot of other readers, hear, many of whom are hoping to learn something. Let's worked towards making sure that what they learn will both help keep them safe as well as on the right side of the law.

    Let's say you're visiting your local gun store and someone turns towards you gun in hand and you blow them away only to discover they're simply a customer examining a firearm for potential purchase. This example may sound ridiculous to the extreme to you, but how about to a newbie with an itchy trigger finger?

    Let's change the situation slightly to that of a private sale conducted in the parking lot of your local grocery store. An unshaven guy with long hair and tats walks around the corner of their car, gun in hand. You blow them away only to discover he was simply bringing his firearm to an individual seated in the car next to him. Yes, bad technique on his part, but if you ever did that, it would be far worse technique on your part.

    My point, mahkagari, is that you made some sweeping statements about the situations in which you would blow people away based on certain observed actions on their part, when those actions may, or may not, constitute lawful authority to use deadly force. Put simply, you have developed some protocols which are dicey at best, and which may very well wind up killing an innocent person and landing yourself in jail for many years.

    Meanwhile, Colorado State Law clearly defines those situations in which you are authorized to use deadly force. You would do well by youself to read Section 18-1, Part 7, entitled Justification and Exemptions From Criminal Responsibility, of the Colorado Revised Statutes and develop a new set of protocols based upon it.

    That was for your benefit.

    For the benefit of the others reading this forum, you come here expecting to find good, accurate information. I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to read, know, and understand the law as it is written with respect to firearms rights, restrictions, and responsibilities. The last two words in the title of Part 7 are "Criminal Responsibility," meaning if your actions fall outside the scope of the law as it is written, you are committing a crime and will an all liklihood be held responsible (tried, convicted, and sentenced). I say this not to scare anyone away from carrying, but to encourage you to read, known, understand, and hopefully follow the law so as to stay out of prison, as well as to better represent those of us who exercise our 2A rights to the masses, most of whom do not exercise the "bear" portion of our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

    The law may seem a little convoluted at first, but it's fairly straightfoward, and the more often you read through it, the more it'll make sense.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    No need to SHOUT (all-caps), mahkagari. This isn't just between you and I - there are a lot of other readers, hear, many of whom are hoping to learn something.
    Just my quick .02, but maybe mahkagari was replying to your caps in your reply?

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    No need to SHOUT (all-caps), mahkagari.
    Couldn't find the italics format for this new forum.

    This isn't just between you and I - there are a lot of other readers, hear, many of whom are hoping to learn something. Let's worked towards making sure that what they learn will both help keep them safe as well as on the right side of the law.

    Let's change the situation slightly to that of a private sale conducted in the parking lot of your local grocery store. An unshaven guy with long hair and tats walks around the corner of their car, gun in hand. You blow them away only to discover he was simply bringing his firearm to an individual seated in the car next to him. Yes, bad technique on his part, but if you ever did that, it would be far worse technique on your part.
    I'll go you one better. In a Defensive Pistol class the instructor was drilling with me and made a hand motion with his dummy gun. He moved it from pointing down to on its way forward. I gave my justification for firing. He made the same motion but with the follow through that showed me he intended to throw the weapon down at my feet. And yeah, I thought, "Oh my god. I just blew someone away for giving up."

    He even noted I probably would have been legally justified in "reasonable person" clause. It'd depend on the arrest, DA, court, and jury. I'd probably be legally justified in any of your examples, depending on the circumstances. But that doesn't make it ethical nor will it help me sleep while I'm second guessing myself after pulling the trigger without being positiviely fearful for my life.

    I'll concede you talking to lurkers and newbies as well as me. I had the same issue with someone in another thread the other day. But within the context noted (someone walking into a liquor store in summer with a mask on and gun in hand) I don't think it was making a sweeping statement unless you're going to read my post in a vacuum. Nowhere was I even implying, and it would take some significant extrapolation (which I don't put past some lurkers or even posters) to deduce that I was endorsing it was "okay" to shoot someone in a /gun store/ who happened to be holding a /gun/. If you're that concerned about lurkers and newbies, how about you clarify you are not insinuating walking gun in hand (or conducting a private firearms transaction in a grocery store parking lot) is an advisable, legal way to OC?

    However, if I walk into a gun store and someone is wearing a mask while holding a shotgun, it being October is only going to give me a slight pause, ceteris paribus. If they swing the shotgun toward me, I can tell you where the odds of what I'll do lay. And yeah, it's more complex than even that. If the store owner is calmly standing there chatting versus frantically unloading the money from the register, etc. And please don't respond, "But what if they were frantically getting money out of the register because they were getting change and it was almost closing time or they had to get to a ringing phone....." Let's not make this into a gorram episode of the Simpsons.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 10-08-2010 at 06:48 PM.

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    Oh what fun

    Some people need to just be Ignored, this one looks to be an instigator under a new name, oh well go ahead and argue with them, it feeds their feeling of self worth ie.... EGO

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Couldn't find the italics format for this new forum.
    You might have the simple text option enabled. Check your forum settings under your profile.

    He made the same motion but with the follow through that showed me he intended to throw the weapon down at my feet. And yeah, I thought, "Oh my god. I just blew someone away for giving up."
    Kopel once mentioned police officers are 5.5 times as likely to inadvertantly shoot innocent civilians as are civilians who're using a firearm to defend themselves. Ironically, I suspect that's in part due the average citizen's relative lack of training, which makes them much less likely to fire unless they feel as if there's no other choice. Also, ironically, it tends to increase the liklihood they wait too long to fire. Thus, police tend to fall on the more aggressive side of the optimum line, and and citizens fall on the less aggressive side.

    Nowhere was I even implying, and it would take some significant extrapolation (which I don't put past some lurkers or even posters) to deduce that I was endorsing it was "okay" to shoot someone in a /gun store/ who happened to be holding a /gun/. If you're that concerned about lurkers and newbies, how about you clarify you are not insinuating walking gun in hand (or conducting a private firearms transaction in a grocery store parking lot) is an advisable, legal way to OC?
    I wouldn't conduct a private firearms transaction in a grocery store parking lot. Then again, as I have no idea where the firearm has been of what it's been used for, I will personally never buy a used firearm from anyone whom I don't know personally, and very well at that.

    However, if I walk into a gun store and someone is wearing a mask while holding a shotgun, it being October is only going to give me a slight pause, ceteris paribus. If they swing the shotgun toward me, I can tell you where the odds of what I'll do lay. And yeah, it's more complex than even that. If the store owner is calmly standing there chatting versus frantically unloading the money from the register, etc. And please don't respond, "But what if they were frantically getting money out of the register because they were getting change and it was almost closing time or they had to get to a ringing phone....." Let's not make this into a gorram episode of the Simpsons.
    Everyone has to draw their own line of comfort. I think I'd draw mine with the mask, a frantic clerk, and the holder of the shotgun swinging it towards me, although even then I'd probably just duck back out rather than attempt to engage in a shootout. On the other hand, if others were clearly in danger (as in cuffed and lying on the floor, as they were during a robbery earlier this summer in Pueblo, CO, in a boutique of all places), and I had a clean shot, I'd take it.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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