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Thread: Woodland Park Library

  1. #1
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    Woodland Park Library

    After about 2 1/2 months open carrying I had my first experience with the Woodland Park Library being the problem. My son and I drove up to Woodland Park just to mess around. I wanted to go into the library to see the staircase that I designed several years ago. Being an Arch draftsman, I have not seen many of my creations and this one I wanted to see. My son went in ahead of me and was standing on the stairs. Being older and walking around the building at higher altitude, I came in a few seconds later...huffing and puffing.

    As I walked in a woman behind the desk hollered out at me that they don't allow guns in the library. I ask her why there was no sign on the door (Colorado requires this) adn she didn't answer. I turned around to walk out and one of the guys behind the counter decided to make sure I knew I had wronged them. I turned and said, sir, you are suposed to have a sign in your door if you don't want guns in your library. He said they have one pinned on the bulliten board. My son told him it might be a good idea to pin it to the door before people enter. It ticked him off about the sign.

    We left and went home. I was nice enough to leave, but will never feel the same about Woodland Park. This may be a good place to hold a get together.

    Oh, I did see the stairs.
    Last edited by jhco50; 09-24-2010 at 09:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhco50 View Post
    but will never feel the same about Woodland Park. This may be a good place to hold a get together.
    As someone who's seriously considering moving upslope to WP, I'd be very interested in how this turns out.

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    I don't know, I will probably not go to the library again, but would be interested in whether or not they post the sign. Colorado law requires the sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhco50 View Post
    I don't know, I will probably not go to the library again, but would be interested in whether or not they post the sign. Colorado law requires the sign.
    I'd take three of you next time, along with a brief printout of the affecting CRS. Sit down and start reading. If they throw a fit, call 911 and tell them some nut in the library is harrassing you.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I'd take three of you next time, along with a brief printout of the affecting CRS. Sit down and start reading. If they throw a fit, call 911 and tell them some nut in the library is harrassing you.
    Yeah, I'd be curious about that CRS myself. The one that REQUIRES a sign rather than ALLOWS for it in order to not give up one's right to refuse service.

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    We actually had a discussion about this and can't figure out how exactly one would be able to ban carry in the library without proper signage and possibly the permission of the city council as it is not a private entity and is funded by the whole of the tax paying citizenry. I do think that it would be a great idea to go with some extra people, maybe a video camera and some flyers that explain the laws pertaining to open carry and concealed carry.

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    Ahhhhhhh....required by law for PUBLIC property, not for private property up to the owner's discretion. That makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Ahhhhhhh....required by law for PUBLIC property, not for private property up to the owner's discretion. That makes sense.
    Colorado Law states that if you do business to the public, you must post a sign. Sorry if that doesn't jive with other states laws.
    Last edited by jhco50; 09-27-2010 at 12:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhco50 View Post
    Colorado Law states that if you do business to the public, you must post a sign. Sorry if that doesn't jive with other states laws.
    Ok, back to being confused. Can someone post that? It is my understanding private property owners still retain their rights.

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    Local governments are required to post off-limits areas. Businesses are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamite Rabbit View Post
    Local governments are required to post off-limits areas. Businesses are not.
    This thread has confused me a little bit.....

    State law does say what Dynamite Rabbit has posted. The law does say that IF there is a law on the books prohibiting open carry, then signs must be posted. What if there is no local law?? I looked and could not find a truly applicable Woodland Park statute. The only thing I could find was a law that said, basically...that you couldn't "display" a dangerous or deadly weapon (at all), and that you couldn't threaten anyone with a weapon....and the law was last updated in 1976. It doesn't quite meet the criteria state law requires.

    I'm assuming that without a "No OC" law....signs would be meaningless....??? Would it be similar to private property posted, no legal weight?

    And without any signs, does that make OC perfectly legal? Even if the people in charge don't want it?

    Cites below:

    State Law:
    http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext...main-h.htm&cp=
    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying posting.



    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    Woodland Park Code:
    http://library.municode.com/index.as...eName=Colorado
    9.70.030 - Unlawful display.
    It is unlawful for any person purposely or knowingly to display a firearm whether loaded or unloaded at or about any person; or purposely draw or exhibit any dangerous or deadly weapon or any object resembling any such weapon in the presence of another person in a rude, angry or threatening manner. (Ord. 43-1976 2:07(C), 1976)

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    If there's no law prohibiting an activity, then the activity (whatever it is) is legal.

    Since the statute says "regulation", I'd guess that the library board could prohibit open carry on their own, but IANAL. They clearly would need to post the entrances.

    Without signs, I believe that they can't kick you out without violating 29-11.7-104. You can't be trespassed from public property, as far as I know.

    These are good questions. Too bad the law is so convoluted!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Ok, back to being confused. Can someone post that? It is my understanding private property owners still retain their rights.
    I found the one for government buildings and I am looking for the other one and will post it when I find it.

    Colo Revised Statutes
    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/29-11.7-104.asp
    (As already posted)

    Colorado has a preemption law that does not allow cities (except Denver) to make any law stronger than what the state has passed. This would mean that the 1976 law should be null and void.
    Last edited by jhco50; 09-27-2010 at 11:12 PM.

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    Well, I found something on merchants, but not on the signage. This is one of the best links on Colorado handgun laws I have found. Of course that takes you to the open carry section, but look around the orgs site. They also have a merchant list of posted businesses.

    http://www.rmgo.org/faq/#OpenCarry

    http://www.rmgo.org/merchant/merchan...ng.php?s=0&p=4

    Must open carry bans be posted? YES.
    CRS 29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting
    Last edited by jhco50; 09-28-2010 at 12:56 AM.

  15. #15
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    The statutes are:

    18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions

    and

    18-4-504. Third degree criminal trespass

    and

    29-11.7-103. Regulation - type of firearm - prohibited

    and

    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting

    18-12-214: "A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2."

    18-4-504 applies ONLY to private residences and businesses. A public library is a public premises.

    29-11.7-103 states: "A local government may not enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and unenforceable."

    However,

    29-11.7-103 states: "A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area."

    Conclusion: If the Woodland Park government has enacted "an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm" at the library AND signs are posted at the public entrances or "specific area" (whatever that means), then you may not open carry in that building. You can, however, continue to carry concealed.

    Actionable item: Find out if Woodland park has such an law on their books. If they don't, it's the librarian who is breaking the law by telling you to leave.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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