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FBI Sweeps - Unreasonable Search and Seizure?

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
That is the thinking that gave us the current government. If you think that there is no difference between what has happened these past two years and what happened prior, then there is no hope of your help in ousting the current government in November.

To those who can discern the difference, it is you to whom I have written my signature below.

Elections have consequences.

Moving on.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
The problem can be solved, but the means of doing so are long past the soap box, and probably well past the ballot box as well.

Our Constitution has been twisted and subverted by over two centuries of "interpretations", two centuries of politicians justifying ever increasing tyrannies upon the people by use of those "interpretations". Can you imagine a founding father, on hearing of a federal mandate for every citizen to participate in a specific commerce?

Can you imagine our founding fathers horror at seeing the loss of liberty and freedom in any given state in this country saying "hey, it's working"?

I can not.

I can see them screaming at the top of their lungs that it is time to replace the very document that they wrote. Replaced with one much more restrictive on the federal and state powers. One that retains the liberties and freedoms they (the founding fathers) intended the people of this country to have. Free from government intrusions upon our daily lives.

Yes, I can see that quite clearly!
 

eye95

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Messages
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Sorry to have to say it, but talk like that is wacko.

We are nowhere near the point of revolution. Thinking we are mitigates against solving the problems peacefully. I cannot respect that POV at all.

And, that POV runs counter to the premise of this site. Talk of revolution should be taken elsewhere.
 

We-the-People

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Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
I said nothing of revolution. Revolution would mean war and we've had one civil war in this country. It was ugly, nasty, destructive (like all wars). Americans are too soft to stomach such an action anyway.

It is, however, difficult to envision correcting the damage done to our Constitution over teh last two centuries with the ballot box at this point. I suspect that we are destined to lose it within the next 25 years whether by active political action that completes the destruction or by simply running the economy into the ground.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Sorry to have to say it, but talk like that is wacko.

We are nowhere near the point of revolution. Thinking we are mitigates against solving the problems peacefully. I cannot respect that POV at all.

And, that POV runs counter to the premise of this site. Talk of revolution should be taken elsewhere.

Out of curiosity when would you support our constitutional right of overthrow?
I don't advocate violence but I do question that some point we may have to make our government respect their place in society force-ably.

Neither Republican or Democrats are ever elected by majority votes (since the majority of folks don't vote). Let's remember Hitler was not all that popular in Germany yet like many of our politicians, he used his position to further their agenda. Gun control being a big one. "Social" and "moral" standards being another tool.

You don't have to go back that far and you would have never guessed the amount of control the government has garnered. Yet the snow ball has been pushed over the hill, if we don't control it and stop it in the next few elections, what are the options left? Accept progressive republic or democratic socialism?

I am not a fan of tinfoil hats and don't like militia groups, but never in my life have I met neighbors or strangers wondering what as a people can we do? as I do now. There is a spirit of we simply have had enough of this crap going around. And is something to think serious about and not to just shrug off as "whacko".

I personally hope constitutional minded folks who aren't looking after a party interests will be elected and end this tidal wave of Republican and Democratic authoritarianism.
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I do respect the natural right (not any constitutional one) for the people to dissolve a government and form another. Now is nowhere near the time--even if we are moving toward such a time.

And, make no mistake about it, when one says we are "well past the ballot box," they are subtly calling for revolution, any denials notwithstanding.

In another thread, a few moments ago, I pointed out how OCDO (in addition to another organization) needs to do some introspection to see why some might mistake us for a violent fringe group. We definitely have a few posters here writing things that give that mistaken impression of this site.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
We can hope, there's always hope. Even the most oppressed people in the world have hope.

Having served in the military for many years, violent revolution must be avoided. A civil war in this country, in this day and age, would be horrendous, although all war is. On the other hand, economic collapse won't be pretty either.

In an economic collapse scenario, city dwellers will be heading for the "hills". Since most in the city have made no preparations and have no skills, they will revert to basic survival instincts and take what they need. Country folks won't take kindly to that and it will get real ugly real fast.

All one needs to do is look at any of a number of natural and made made crisis that have occurred in the U.S. The "Rodney King" riots, Katrina, post basketball riots, etc. There are enough people in this country who are restrained, not by their morals but by the laws, that when society fails (i.e. economy collapses and governments don't pay their police) that there will be widespread lawlessness coupled to the mob mentality.

I think there is a greater chance of economic collapse or a military coup than any armed uprising of the people in this country.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I can see them screaming at the top of their lungs that it is time to replace the very document that they wrote. Replaced with one much more restrictive on the federal and state powers. One that retains the liberties and freedoms they (the founding fathers) intended the people of this country to have. Free from government intrusions upon our daily lives.

Yes, I can see that quite clearly!

I can't. If the powers on the feds were much more restrictive, we'd have been ill-prepared to respond to and fund World Wars I and II, and might no longer even exist as a country. We were barely on the winning side as it was!

To say our founders hit the center of the target in one area but messed up the overall document bad enough for a complete rewrite is illogical.

You are making an assumption the the warrant was issued on too little evidence. It is the judge (according to our Constitution) who is charged with determining whether or not the evidence is enough to support a warrant. If a judge egregiously oversteps his bounds, that will be determined by a trial judge or an appellate judge.

Before or after the accused has spent $50,000 on their legal defense?

But, we have nothing to indicate that the warrant was issued on too little evidence. Remember, they don't need enough evidence of a crime to convict. They need only probable cause (which is why, unless an arrest warrant is also issued, not necessary or even common, no arrests usually accompany most search warrants).

Unless exigent circumstances exist, they need several things, actually:

- probable cause
- reasonability
- specificity
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
As long as we a making lazy, relatively meaningless posts:

I think the term is "judicial review."

Moving on until something substantive is posted.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
Judicial Review, as a legal term, concerns the courts review of the Constitutionality of legislation, laws, administrative rules, etc. It is the CHECK of the Judiciary on the Executive and Legislative branches. A warrant is reviewed by a judge (in theory) but it is not a matter of "Judicial Review" as it is not reviewing the Constitutionality of Legislation, an act (such as the Clean Water Act not an ACTion), or administrative rule. It is merely reviewing the presented material to determine if suffcient cause exists to issue the warrant.

Warrant issuance today is no more than a rubber stamp in many jurisdictions, particularly at the federal level. Additionally, most warrants issued today are defective when one applies the constitutional requirements to them properly.

Amendment IV of the U.S. Constitution states: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be siezed.

When a warrant is so broad as to include all the papers, files, hard drives, computers, and any and everything else where information might be stored.....there is no probable cause that something illegal is there, it is a fishing trip, plain and simple. The founding fathers intended us to be secure from such fishing trips and wrote teh fourth amendment to ensure that protection. For a long time it worked, but the ever increasing willingness of liberal judges to grant "fishing licenses" to goverment agents has turned the fourth into a rubber stamp process.

The WACO incident is a splendid example. The Davidians had broken no laws, there were not stockpiling weapons, they were not abusing children, they simply were doing things that some other people didn't like and the BATF needed a "big news headline" to shore up their position in budget negotiations due to fallout from the Ruby Ridge fiasco.

The federal agents included allegations of child abuse in their warrant application because they knew the judge considering the application would grant it if those allegations were there. Never mind that it is not within the jurisdiction of the federal government, they couldn't be bothered with (and apparently neither could the federal judge) with such trivial things as having no jurisdiction. Never mind that the allegations had already been investigated by the state of Texas and found to be UNFOUNDED (the investigating officer even said "I don't like them or what they're doing but there is no abuse going on"). Never mind that the source of the allegations was a disgrunteled former spouse who was in the midst of a custody fight after abandoning her children when she left the church.
Then there are the weapons allegations. The Davidians had fewer weapons per adult than the AVERAGE Texas household....hardly "stockpiling" weapons. They also had federally issued firearms DEALER licenses under which they operated a legitimate and legal firearms business. The supposed "conversion kits" to convert AR15's to full auto were actually CLEANING KITS and the part number of the orders for them confirms that. The "grenades" they were buying were dummy bodies which, as part of their firearms business, they made a souvenier of. They were completely legal to own, possess, sell, etc.
So, the judge before whom all this defective "evidence" was brought rubber stamped the warrant with a very hefty dose of "to protect the children" I'm sure.

OOOPS THOUGH....it was NOT a "no knock" warrant, yet the BATF showed up in cattle cars with military arms and tactics to make an ASSAULT upon law abiding citizens. And they screwed up, from the get go, resulting in the fratricide (that's shooting their own guys) that occured during the initial assault.
And then it got even more stupid.

RUBBER STAMP, that's all a judge does with a warrant any more.
 
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