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Thread: Lacey in Violation of Preemption

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    Lacey in Violation of Preemption

    The city of Lacey prohibits firearms in parks. I could not find anything in their local ordinances, but the restriction also appears on their website (http://www.ci.lacey.wa.us/city-gover...tions-overview)

    I searched the forums but couldn't find any other mention. I sent an email (below) to their City Attorney. Who else should I be contacting?

    Thanks. Letter as follows:

    Attorney Ahlf --
    On a recent visit to Lacey's Regional Athletic Complex, I noticed signs prohibiting firearms. The Lacey website also mentions a prohibition on firearms in parks (http://www.ci.lacey.wa.us/city-gover...tions-overview).

    Unfortunately, these prohibitions violate WA State's firearms preemption: RCW 9.41.290 and RCW 9.41.300, which gives the state sole regulatory powers over firearms regulations.

    To bring Lacey in line with State Law, the city should remove prohibitions on firearms on signs in parks, from the website and from local ordinances where applicable. The city can instead legally prohibit the discharge of firearms but not the possession of firearms (as allowed by RCW 9.41.300).

    Thank you! Please let me know if there's someone else I should be contacting regarding this issue. The RAC is a wonderful place and a marvelous gem in Lacey.

    Alexander

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Keep us posted for sure!

    Joe~

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    This is a good start...but, you should also find out who will make the decision....most likely the city council...and you'll need to send a letter to them.

    If it's anything like Pierce County, an ordinance will be sponsored by one of the council members...and then it goes through their process...the council chair or if it is broken into districts, find out where you live and who that is...and make (consensual) contact.

    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    I would also suggest you send it to Lacey's police chief; Dusty Pierpoint @ laceypolice@ci.lacey.wa.us

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Call the parks director as well.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    We need a "Form Letter" that can have the blanks filled in and then sent to any City or County that has non-conforming Park "Rules/Regulations". That way all the appropriate Citations can be included. RCW's, AG Opinion, Court Rulings, can all be accurately listed.
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    Lacey must change this..., hopefully, sooner than later!

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    dont forget that both Roy and Yelm are in violation of preemption in parks as well...


    I had the codes somewhere but cant find them right now....
    Last edited by devildoc5; 09-26-2010 at 04:57 PM.
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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    dont forget that both Roy and Yelm are in violation of preemption in parks as well...


    I had the codes somewhere but cant find them right now....

    Isn't Seattle, too? I know I heard a while back that they banned them in parks, I just don't know if anyone got them to remove that rule, though.

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    Isn't Seattle, too? I know I heard a while back that they banned them in parks, I just don't know if anyone got them to remove that rule, though.
    Seattle's back in compliance. They got sued and lost.

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    What you mean is that they still have signs referring to an unenforceable ordinance repealed by the state's preemption statute.

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Lori sounds like a pretty straight-up person! I'm impressed.
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    Thank you NavyLT. I'm having problems with the search on OpenCarry.org -- it shows you threads with the keywords, but doesn't actually take you to the page with the keyword. "Lacey" showed up a couple of times, but I couldn't find a specific mention.

    Lacey's Regional Athletic Complex sign is particularly interesting. It says something like: "Explosive devices for launching projectiles, weapons or otherwise, are prohibited."

    I think they were trying to ban fireworks, handguns and rockets all in one sentence.

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Meeting time

    Let's try to get max participation! (Are we allowed to OC at City Hall?)
    Here is her resonse I got today:
    Thank, you for the quick reply, I will try to make it. I will also let others in the community know as well.

    Thanks,

    Chuck Story



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Subject: RE: Illegal Rules
    Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:35:58 -0700
    From: LFlemm@ci.lacey.wa.us
    To: storyc@hotmail.com


    Thank you, Charles.

    The Park Board is meeting tonight at Lacey City Hall at 5:30pm to consider a revision to our rules regarding this. You may attend the meeting, please call me if you need directions. If you don’t attend, I will reply to you tomorrow with the action taken.

    Sincerely,

    Lori



    Lori Flemm

    Lori Flemm, Director

    City of Lacey Parks and Recreation Dept.

    PO Box 3400, Lacey, WA 98509-3400

    City Hall, 420 College St. SE, Lacey, WA 98503

    360.438.2633

    FAX 360.438.2669
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Yes, you are allowed to OC at the city hall. I was there 2 Saturdays ago and again last Saturday. There are no signs at the door saying otherwise, and it is not in a restricted area.

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    We Win!

    Well to be correct a "win" involves a contest or battle, it was over before I got to the Parks and Rec meeting. After the e-mails we sent to the Parks Director, she went to the city attorney and they decided it was pretty much a no brainer and decided they were not in compliance with state law. She contacted the Lacey Police CPT and informed them to get the word out to all in the Dept. to not bother anybody that is legally carrying. She is going to send me an e-mail confirming this, which I will post. Obviously as with most city/county/state budgets they will not be able to get all the signs changed right away. They said as time permits they will paint over/remove the word gun/firearm. They said they should be able to get at least the website changed pretty quick. That will pretty much be around the end of OCT when they officially vote on the changes (our gun change was just one of many). Overall it was a very positive encounter, I answered a couple of questions and handed out our WA pamphlet.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    We need a "Form Letter" that can have the blanks filled in and then sent to any City or County that has non-conforming Park "Rules/Regulations". That way all the appropriate Citations can be included. RCW's, AG Opinion, Court Rulings, can all be accurately listed.
    This is a great idea! I don't know the cases that can be cited, but I know the RCWs. If anyone wants to send me the cases to cite, I can put something together.

    Joe~

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Let's try to get max participation! (Are we allowed to OC at City Hall?)
    Here is her resonse I got today:
    Thank, you for the quick reply, I will try to make it. I will also let others in the community know as well.

    Thanks,

    Chuck Story
    Yes (http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/a...o-county-comm/)

    Joe~

  19. #19
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Well to be correct a "win" involves a contest or battle, it was over before I got to the Parks and Rec meeting. After the e-mails we sent to the Parks Director, she went to the city attorney and they decided it was pretty much a no brainer and decided they were not in compliance with state law. She contacted the Lacey Police CPT and informed them to get the word out to all in the Dept. to not bother anybody that is legally carrying. She is going to send me an e-mail confirming this, which I will post. Obviously as with most city/county/state budgets they will not be able to get all the signs changed right away. They said as time permits they will paint over/remove the word gun/firearm. They said they should be able to get at least the website changed pretty quick. That will pretty much be around the end of OCT when they officially vote on the changes (our gun change was just one of many). Overall it was a very positive encounter, I answered a couple of questions and handed out our WA pamphlet.

    Well done sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Awesome! Well done everyone. I just got this back from the City Attorney of Lacey:

    ---
    Alexander:

    The City's Board of Park Commissioners is currently considering possible
    changes to the Park Regulations regarding possession of fire arms.

    Thank you for your kind comments regarding the RAC.

    Ken Ahlf
    ---

    I'm impressed with Lacey's timeliness and professionalism. Anyone who lives and votes in a Lacey should take note!

    Alexander

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    I'm also impressed with the timeliness and professionalism, and the obviously tightly coordinated, apparently well run team there.

    Wouldn't it be nice if all the folks we contacted were as competent and dedicated to their jobs as the folks in Lacey. I'm especially impressed with the way Lori took the ball and ran with it, getting the job done with no pushing needed.
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

  22. #22
    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    Good job on pursuing this issue within Lacey and following up in person.

    Also, kudos to Lacey for resolving this issue quickly, too bad some libraries that we're reading about right now can't seem to find the "fast" button on this same issue.

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    This is a great idea! I don't know the cases that can be cited, but I know the RCWs. If anyone wants to send me the cases to cite, I can put something together.

    Joe~
    The Court Cases I know of are "Heller" and the King County Superior Court Ruling. I don't have the exact cite but here is a news release:

    "SEATTLE, Feb. 12 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — A King County Superior Court judge has ruled in favor of a lawsuit filed by the Second Amendment Foundation and National Rifle Association, striking down a ban on guns in city parks because it violates Washington State’s long-standing preemption statute.

    Judge Catherine Shaffer ruled from the bench that the gun ban, adopted under former Mayor Greg Nickels, violates Washington’s law, which placed sole authority for regulating firearms in the hands of the State Legislature. That law was adopted in 1983 and amended in 1985, and has served as a model for similar laws across the country."

    The one thing that would probably carry a lot of weight is the AG's opinion regarding laws that contravene State Preemption.

    Keeping it simple, showing how Seattle lost on their "ban" and backing it with the AG's opinion, and a reference to "Heller" that states the 2A DOES apply in the State. Toss in Sec. 1, Art 24 of the State Constitution.

    If you post a draft of your work here you might get some comments from those who have a greater insight as to the workings of government and the law that might make it have a good impact.

    Since the issue is pretty much the same State Wide with codes that have not been revised for decades, there is no point to 'reinventing' the wheel for every instance that a non complying "law", "rule", or "regulation" is found.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomGoober View Post
    Awesome! Well done everyone. I just got this back from the City Attorney of Lacey:

    ---
    Alexander:

    The City's Board of Park Commissioners is currently considering possible
    changes to the Park Regulations regarding possession of fire arms.

    Thank you for your kind comments regarding the RAC.

    Ken Ahlf
    ---

    I'm impressed with Lacey's timeliness and professionalism. Anyone who lives and votes in a Lacey should take note!

    Alexander
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    I'm also impressed with the timeliness and professionalism, and the obviously tightly coordinated, apparently well run team there.

    Wouldn't it be nice if all the folks we contacted were as competent and dedicated to their jobs as the folks in Lacey. I'm especially impressed with the way Lori took the ball and ran with it, getting the job done with no pushing needed.
    I would be even more impressed if the response was more like "Thank you for calling our attention to this discrepancy. We will correct this immediately", rather than the response that they are "considering" changing it. This merely tells me that they are waiting to hear from their "counsel" to see if there is a way to weasel their way around State Law.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Vancouver

    I feel bad for Joe with all the stupid Anti remarks in the comment section.
    Also amlevin I was at the meeting, and they are changing the rules. They've already told the police dept to not bother anybody or try to enforce what is on the sign concerning firearms.
    Last edited by golddigger14s; 09-28-2010 at 01:34 PM.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

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