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Thread: Finished CCW Class Today...

  1. #1
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    Finished CCW Class Today...

    The class was the required 8 hrs, I did catch some good tips on general gun related topics but really not much law related stuff I didn't already know. The instructor and I got into it a bit over open carry, just because he has such large amount of experience I wasn't comfortable standing ground on everything but I did tell him absolutely that he was incorrect about open carry being illegal in all of Missouri as I knew of many cities where it was perfectly legal.

    You could tell he had a bit of an abrasive opinion of open carry as he then talked about how all it takes is one guy to go before a judge and we could lose CCW and open carry in the whole state, seemed kind of like a doom scenario to me. He also went into a few stories he knew of where someone had been sued civilly for a person being scared of the gun and hurting themselves trying to get away.

    If the regulars don't mind helping me with a few items I'm unsure of I'd really appreciate it.

    1. Instructor tells the class open carry is illegal statewide (I tell him no dice, it's legal except as municipalities restrict it)
    2. Instructor tells the class and me that open carry with a CCW is "flourishing" / "brandishing" and will get your CCW taken away (this one I have no idea about, if you have a CCW and your coat comes open he says you can lose your CCW)
    3. Instructor is telling class Independence police are taking any gun they come across, legal or otherwise, and confiscating it to run "ballistics" tests on the gun to determine if it's ever been used in a crime. This is a ploy St. Louis is using to keep guns for as long as possible and hassle gun owners. (Has anyone else heard of or experienced this?)
    4. Has anyone heard of someone being sued for "scaring" someone else just by standing there with a gun on their hip? Seems insane but nothing surprises me anymore in this litigious society...
    5. One last question just for me since I'm traveling to Kansas every day for work, do I still have to lock up the gun and ammunition separately even if I have my CCW?

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    I find it amazing that some of these CCW "trainers" are so uneducated. This trainer along with many others do not want people OC'ing because if people OC for FREE then why pay to take their "training class". As far as the Independence PD collecting and taking guns from citizens to run tests....I OC in Independence all the time and await the day they try and "take" my gun for NO reason and keep it to run tests. Can anyone say...LAWSUIT? This instructor seems like a total flake. Such a shame when people who are supposed to be gun advocates choose to interact this way.

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    My son works at a local restaurant in Independence and I went to pick him up one night and as I pulled in two Indep police wheeled in behind me. I got out and they relieved me of my weapon (my shirt was pulled up) and informed me the restaurant had been robbed and my son had a gun held to his head. I showed them my permit and about 10 mins later they returned my weapon and clip and told me I could reload it. I have a letter from the chief of police and city attorney of Independence stating it is perfectly legal to open carry in Independence.

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    Angry

    amclint, if this involves an NRA certified instructor, you would do us all a BIG favor by making a detailed complaint to the NRA about this highly unprofessional and dangerous instructor. If possible, ask the NRA to give you contact information for your local training counselor (the one who certified that instructor) and make sure he is aware of the problem. They can - and must - withdraw that certification if the person refuses to follow NRA policy.

    As an NRA certified instructor, we are PROHIBITED from giving any such legal advice or information in the class. I am not a lawyer and CANNOT give legal advice. I don't even offer a print out of the state law here, but urge my students to look it up themselves, and ask questions at the sheriff's office when/if they go to apply for a CC permit.

    I teach self defense, including CC, but carry openly myself most of the time.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amclint View Post
    The class was the required 8 hrs, I did catch some good tips on general gun related topics but really not much law related stuff I didn't already know. The instructor and I got into it a bit over open carry, just because he has such large amount of experience I wasn't comfortable standing ground on everything but I did tell him absolutely that he was incorrect about open carry being illegal in all of Missouri as I knew of many cities where it was perfectly legal.

    You could tell he had a bit of an abrasive opinion of open carry as he then talked about how all it takes is one guy to go before a judge and we could lose CCW and open carry in the whole state, seemed kind of like a doom scenario to me. He also went into a few stories he knew of where someone had been sued civilly for a person being scared of the gun and hurting themselves trying to get away.

    If the regulars don't mind helping me with a few items I'm unsure of I'd really appreciate it.

    1. Instructor tells the class open carry is illegal statewide (I tell him no dice, it's legal except as municipalities restrict it)
    2. Instructor tells the class and me that open carry with a CCW is "flourishing" / "brandishing" and will get your CCW taken away (this one I have no idea about, if you have a CCW and your coat comes open he says you can lose your CCW)
    3. Instructor is telling class Independence police are taking any gun they come across, legal or otherwise, and confiscating it to run "ballistics" tests on the gun to determine if it's ever been used in a crime. This is a ploy St. Louis is using to keep guns for as long as possible and hassle gun owners. (Has anyone else heard of or experienced this?)
    4. Has anyone heard of someone being sued for "scaring" someone else just by standing there with a gun on their hip? Seems insane but nothing surprises me anymore in this litigious society...
    5. One last question just for me since I'm traveling to Kansas every day for work, do I still have to lock up the gun and ammunition separately even if I have my CCW?

    Let's take these one at a time.

    1. You already know the answer to that one and bravo for educating the instructor(though I doubt he will learn from it)

    2. It's only brandishing if you take it out of the holster and wave it around in a threating or negligent manner.

    3. I can't respond since I don't live in the area, but would highly doubt it. If it were happening you would definitely here stories of it and lawsuits.

    4. I won't say someone might not try to file a suit for being scared of someone OCing, but it would be thrown out immediately. Someone exercising a legal right is not grounds for someone to sue. If a person has a problem with that, it is "their" problem both legally and personally.

    5. This one amazes me ever time. In the state of MO every driver who is legally allowed to own a gun is allowed to carry a gun in their vehicle. It's called "peaceful journey". It's legal to keep the firearm loaded and it can be carried anywhere in the passenger compartment openly or concealed without a permit. I recently had a friend say he was going to go to CCW class so he could carry a handgun in his truck. There was a group other friends there and several said they to wanted to get a permit to carry in their vehicles (or as us hillbillies say "rigs"). You would not believe the disbelief and astonishment on their faces when I told them they didn't need a permit from the state to carry in their rigs. I did inform them that if the stepped out of the rig and had the gun on them concealed they would need a permit. I say you all this with the assumption (and we all know what that means) that KC doesn't have a local statue outlawing legal carry in a vehicle.


    Any way congratulations on finishing your class and hope to hear more from you as far as OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    amclint, if this involves an NRA certified instructor, you would do us all a BIG favor by making a detailed complaint to the NRA about this highly unprofessional and dangerous instructor. If possible, ask the NRA to give you contact information for your local training counselor (the one who certified that instructor) and make sure he is aware of the problem. They can - and must - withdraw that certification if the person refuses to follow NRA policy.

    As an NRA certified instructor, we are PROHIBITED from giving any such legal advice or information in the class. I am not a lawyer and CANNOT give legal advice. I don't even offer a print out of the state law here, but urge my students to look it up themselves, and ask questions at the sheriff's office when/if they go to apply for a CC permit.

    I teach self defense, including CC, but carry openly myself most of the time.

    Mama, can't speak for the OP, but few if any of the CCW instructors in my area of South East Missouri are NRA certified. It's not required by the state and many I have seen around this area are, for lack of a better description, piss poor. The ones who gave my class were both ex-LEO's and seemed only interested in telling us old stories of when they were on the force, and telling us "we" were not LEO's. There was only the minimal legal legal info(only that required by state guidelines) and you got the distinct impression they didn't want any questions about the legal.

    Another class taken by a close friend was just the opposite. The "instructor" just wheeled out a TV and video of a lawyer talking for three hours about the legal aspects(would have liked to seen it) and very little firearm training.

    When CCW classes were first started it cost around $100-$150 a class in my area, now with the glut of "instructors" it is around $50 and it seems you get what you pay for.
    Last edited by SavageOne; 09-26-2010 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    5. This one amazes me ever time. In the state of MO every driver who is legally allowed to own a gun is allowed to carry a gun in their vehicle. It's called "peaceful journey". It's legal to keep the firearm loaded and it can be carried anywhere in the passenger compartment openly or concealed without a permit. I recently had a friend say he was going to go to CCW class so he could carry a handgun in his truck. There was a group other friends there and several said they to wanted to get a permit to carry in their vehicles (or as us hillbillies say "rigs"). You would not believe the disbelief and astonishment on their faces when I told them they didn't need a permit from the state to carry in their rigs. I did inform them that if the stepped out of the rig and had the gun on them concealed they would need a permit. I say you all this with the assumption (and we all know what that means) that KC doesn't have a local statue outlawing legal carry in a vehicle.
    I just wanted to clarify a couple things. The peaceable journey clause is a federal one, and Missouri does recognize it, but the firearm must be unloaded to comply with federal law. On the other hand, if you're 21 or older you are correct you may have a concealable firearm loaded concealed/open in your vehicle.

    Second thing the only things a local ordinance may address regarding firearms, is open carry, and the discharge of a firearm. KC cannot create an ordinance forbidding the carry of a concealable firearm in your car. State law forbids such an ordinance.

    This instructor must have bumped his head on something. I think a better course of action is to contact the Jackson county sheriff and tell them this instructor is spouting of misleading and incorrect information to his students. Get his approval rating removed for Jackson county, and he won't be allowed to instruct anymore in that county.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter64738 View Post
    I just wanted to clarify a couple things. The peaceable journey clause is a federal one, and Missouri does recognize it, but the firearm must be unloaded to comply with federal law. On the other hand, if you're 21 or older you are correct you may have a concealable firearm loaded concealed/open in your vehicle.

    Second thing the only things a local ordinance may address regarding firearms, is open carry, and the discharge of a firearm. KC cannot create an ordinance forbidding the carry of a concealable firearm in your car. State law forbids such an ordinance.

    This instructor must have bumped his head on something. I think a better course of action is to contact the Jackson county sheriff and tell them this instructor is spouting of misleading and incorrect information to his students. Get his approval rating removed for Jackson county, and he won't be allowed to instruct anymore in that county.
    Thanks for the clarification, and welcome to the forum.

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    Thanks for the welcome! I need to create my intro post, but I'm not exactly sure what section it goes under!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    amclint, if this involves an NRA certified instructor, you would do us all a BIG favor by making a detailed complaint to the NRA about this highly unprofessional and dangerous instructor. If possible, ask the NRA to give you contact information for your local training counselor (the one who certified that instructor) and make sure he is aware of the problem. They can - and must - withdraw that certification if the person refuses to follow NRA policy.
    Since the NRA doesn't offer a CCW class, it would be kind of hard to make a case that an instructor wasn't following "NRA policy" during a CCW class. The NRA doesn't really have any control over how a NRA instructor teaches a non-NRA course, so long as the instructor doesn't misrepresent himself or the NRA, or doesn't do something that is in violation of the law or in violation of NRA safety protocol. On the other hand, if this instructor was using the NRA Basic Pistol class as part of his CCW course, then he would be expected to teach the class in exact compliance with the Basic Pistol lesson plan, and if he failed to do so, they could certainly take disciplinary action against him.

    As an NRA certified instructor, we are PROHIBITED from giving any such legal advice or information in the class. I am not a lawyer and CANNOT give legal advice. I don't even offer a print out of the state law here, but urge my students to look it up themselves, and ask questions at the sheriff's office when/if they go to apply for a CC permit.

    I teach self defense, including CC, but carry openly myself most of the time.
    If you are teaching the Missouri CCW course, then you are REQUIRED to teach the statutes in RSMO Chapter 571 that relate to firearms, as well as the statutes in RSMO 563 that relate to the Justifiable Use of Force. Those portions of the class are NOT optional. I would HIGHLY recommend you handout a copy of EACH RSMO chapter to your students before you attempt to teach those statutes as that greatly simplifies the entire process and gives the students a reference source to not only follow along as you go, but to look those statutes up in the future if they have any questions. Teaching statutes and giving legal advice are two entirely different things, and there is certainly no requirement (or necessity) to have an attorney teach those statutes in a class.

    ETA: My apologies. I just realized you are in Wyoming. I am assuming that, because of your location, you probably aren't teaching the Missouri CCW course.
    Last edited by cshoff; 09-26-2010 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter64738 View Post
    I just wanted to clarify a couple things. The peaceable journey clause is a federal one, and Missouri does recognize it, but the firearm must be unloaded to comply with federal law. On the other hand, if you're 21 or older you are correct you may have a concealable firearm loaded concealed/open in your vehicle.

    Second thing the only things a local ordinance may address regarding firearms, is open carry, and the discharge of a firearm. KC cannot create an ordinance forbidding the carry of a concealable firearm in your car. State law forbids such an ordinance.

    This instructor must have bumped his head on something. I think a better course of action is to contact the Jackson county sheriff and tell them this instructor is spouting of misleading and incorrect information to his students. Get his approval rating removed for Jackson county, and he won't be allowed to instruct anymore in that county.
    Hey, Shooter, good to see you here!

    I wouldn't count on a sheriff pulling credentials unless he got MULTIPLE complaints on a specific instructor. I'm already aware of some complaints that have been made about specific instructors and they are still instructing in their respective counties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    Hey, Shooter, good to see you here!

    I wouldn't count on a sheriff pulling credentials unless he got MULTIPLE complaints on a specific instructor. I'm already aware of some complaints that have been made about specific instructors and they are still instructing in their respective counties.
    As a rule I would say you are right. I'm hoping maybe he's already got a few complaints, and maybe this one will be the last straw. I just hate to see bad information out there. I wanna think there is some way to put a stop to it. Even if it's in vein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter64738 View Post
    As a rule I would say you are right. I'm hoping maybe he's already got a few complaints, and maybe this one will be the last straw. I just hate to see bad information out there. I wanna think there is some way to put a stop to it. Even if it's in vein.
    I know what you mean. Unfortunately, I think most Sheriff's, short of having some kind of indisputable evidence, don't really care too much. Getting into a "he said, she said" dispute is something most Sheriff's will probably avoid like the plague.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    Let's take these one at a time.

    1. You already know the answer to that one and bravo for educating the instructor(though I doubt he will learn from it)

    2. It's only brandishing if you take it out of the holster and wave it around in a threating or negligent manner.

    3. I can't respond since I don't live in the area, but would highly doubt it. If it were happening you would definitely here stories of it and lawsuits.

    4. I won't say someone might not try to file a suit for being scared of someone OCing, but it would be thrown out immediately. Someone exercising a legal right is not grounds for someone to sue. If a person has a problem with that, it is "their" problem both legally and personally.

    5. This one amazes me ever time. In the state of MO every driver who is legally allowed to own a gun is allowed to carry a gun in their vehicle. It's called "peaceful journey". It's legal to keep the firearm loaded and it can be carried anywhere in the passenger compartment openly or concealed without a permit. I recently had a friend say he was going to go to CCW class so he could carry a handgun in his truck. There was a group other friends there and several said they to wanted to get a permit to carry in their vehicles (or as us hillbillies say "rigs"). You would not believe the disbelief and astonishment on their faces when I told them they didn't need a permit from the state to carry in their rigs. I did inform them that if the stepped out of the rig and had the gun on them concealed they would need a permit. I say you all this with the assumption (and we all know what that means) that KC doesn't have a local statue outlawing legal carry in a vehicle.


    Any way congratulations on finishing your class and hope to hear more from you as far as OC.
    On #5 I should clarify this was driving from Missouri into Kansas, I did some research and found that in Kansas it would appear that for non-CCW permit holders the firearm has to be locked up and away from the ammunition. For CCW holders they can have the firearm on their person, or within reach and it can be loaded or unloaded.

    I had actually forgotten about the guy that got into trouble for sitting in the mall parking lot with the gun in his holster in Topeka. I sure wish I didn't have to go to Kansas so much...

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    Thanks for the responses, the instructor did follow the CCW course guidelines, which are pretty basic. I don't understand the 8hr requirement, it took such little time to go over the statutes the rest was really just class discussion and instructor stories.

    The main thing I took from the class is the idea of having Glaser type ammunition in my carry gun, I am still looking into it but the idea of the bullets not traveling through objects made sense to me. Does anyone else use these types of rounds and have good or bad feedback on them?

    Also another thing is a guy with the same little Ruger LCP as me had a laser on it, my shot group was pretty big and I swapped him guns for a magazine and went from a 10-12 in group down to 3in. Those lasers are amazing in the difference they make, although I do like to know how to shoot without one. The Ruger has black iron sights and on a black target the thing is a mess to fire, I'm still debating dropping it or changing it to a backup gun and going with a .40 primary carry in the Glock 22 or an XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by amclint View Post
    Thanks for the responses, the instructor did follow the CCW course guidelines, which are pretty basic. I don't understand the 8hr requirement, it took such little time to go over the statutes the rest was really just class discussion and instructor stories.
    If the class is done in a comprehensive manner, it takes every bit of 8 hours to complete. I go over statutes very thoroughly in my course and that part of the class alone takes every bit of 3 hours. Figure at least 1 hour on the range, and the other 4 hours are easily taken up with handgun safety in the classroom, at home, on the firing range and while carrying the firearm, the basic principles of marksmanship, care and cleaning of concealable firearms, safe storage of firearms at home, and a few other odds and ends that are essential to folks who are going to carry a handgun for self defense, and you can easily use up 8 to 9 hours doing the class thoroughly.

    The main thing I took from the class is the idea of having Glaser type ammunition in my carry gun, I am still looking into it but the idea of the bullets not traveling through objects made sense to me. Does anyone else use these types of rounds and have good or bad feedback on them?
    The effectiveness of frangible rounds for defensive use is certainly controversial. They have never been proven to be as effective and efficient at stopping a lethal threat as a well designed hollow point. Furthermore, they cost as much as 5 to 6 dollars each (depending on caliber) making it VERY expensive to perform a thorough functional reliability test through your handgun with them. For my money and my hide, I'll stick to premium defense hollow points.

    Also another thing is a guy with the same little Ruger LCP as me had a laser on it, my shot group was pretty big and I swapped him guns for a magazine and went from a 10-12 in group down to 3in. Those lasers are amazing in the difference they make, although I do like to know how to shoot without one. The Ruger has black iron sights and on a black target the thing is a mess to fire, I'm still debating dropping it or changing it to a backup gun and going with a .40 primary carry in the Glock 22 or an XD
    A VERY wise choice, IMHO. A full size gun, or even a mid-size gun, such as the Glock or XD, makes a MUCH better primary defensive platform than a micro gun will ever be.
    Last edited by cshoff; 09-28-2010 at 12:37 AM.

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    It's not worth repeating all of it again but I gotta give a ++1 on everything cshoff said. It takes at least 3-4 hours to go over the statutes. I also factor some time for questions and explanations. It would be difficult to get it all in at 8 hours. In fact I don't think I have ever gotten it all done by the 8 hour mark.

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    First off amclint, congrats on your CCW course completion!

    Quote Originally Posted by amclint View Post
    The class was the required 8 hrs, I did catch some good tips on general gun related topics but really not much law related stuff I didn't already know. The instructor and I got into it a bit over open carry, just because he has such large amount of experience I wasn't comfortable standing ground on everything but I did tell him absolutely that he was incorrect about open carry being illegal in all of Missouri as I knew of many cities where it was perfectly legal.

    You could tell he had a bit of an abrasive opinion of open carry as he then talked about how all it takes is one guy to go before a judge and we could lose CCW and open carry in the whole state, seemed kind of like a doom scenario to me. He also went into a few stories he knew of where someone had been sued civilly for a person being scared of the gun and hurting themselves trying to get away.

    If the regulars don't mind helping me with a few items I'm unsure of I'd really appreciate it.

    1. Instructor tells the class open carry is illegal statewide (I tell him no dice, it's legal except as municipalities restrict it)
    2. Instructor tells the class and me that open carry with a CCW is "flourishing" / "brandishing" and will get your CCW taken away (this one I have no idea about, if you have a CCW and your coat comes open he says you can lose your CCW)
    3. Instructor is telling class Independence police are taking any gun they come across, legal or otherwise, and confiscating it to run "ballistics" tests on the gun to determine if it's ever been used in a crime. This is a ploy St. Louis is using to keep guns for as long as possible and hassle gun owners. (Has anyone else heard of or experienced this?)
    4. Has anyone heard of someone being sued for "scaring" someone else just by standing there with a gun on their hip? Seems insane but nothing surprises me anymore in this litigious society...
    5. One last question just for me since I'm traveling to Kansas every day for work, do I still have to lock up the gun and ammunition separately even if I have my CCW?
    I see a lot of errors in what you're telling us this instructor made claims to, we see this from time to time from instructors. However, no matter what the instructor chooses to tell the class, that person is the instructor and you should always approach an issue on a side-bar as should the instructor. That person has your money and can quickly kick you out of the class, so don't forget that.

    The "brandishing" thing comes up a lot with some instructors. I still to this day do not know where the heck they're getting this from, but it does sound like it's specific to a few bad instructors that clearly do not know the law...sadly they are supposed to teach the applicable statutes in their class. (duh) No lawsuits to my knowledge have EVER been filed for lawful open carry in a holster. Your coat coming open is not cause for you to lose your CCW, that's a bunch of bunk.

    As for the confiscation issue in the STL and KC areas...you can bet this IS happening. Both of those areas like to play the "prove you own it" game. It's illegal seizure and they know it. IF you ever manage to prove it's yours chances are it will have already been sold at police auction...we know just how trustworthy STLPD is with anything they've confiscated don't we. (see articles on the former Chief and you'll know for sure)

    On the Kansas issue, see the reciprocity map that's available on the MOAG's website (should be on your local Sheriff's site as well). Then I suggest printing Kansas CCW and OC laws that apply as well as their use of force law and study them before your trip. Keep a copy on hand for reference, they may come in handy. I'm not sure if Kansas is a mandatory disclosure State or not, Missouri does not require disclosure they only require presentation of the permit upon request.

    Reciprocity map: http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/
    Handgunlaw.us info (will have Kansas laws available): http://www.handgunlaw.us/

    On handgunlaw.us, click on the applicable State. Missouri and Kansas have reciprocity with each other, Kansas accepts Missouri CCW. Click on Kansas to get the Kansas law, make sure you can look up the applicable Kansas statutes to confirm what's there. It's usually pretty accurate.

    My suggestion is that you contact the Sheriff of the issuing county and file a complaint as well as contacting the MOAG's offie to report the falsely claimed information that can easily be refuted by Missouri Statutes. Remember to be professional and kind, you'll get more positive results this way...and stress that the misinformation causes undue stress to students as well as presents potential legal ramifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    amclint, if this involves an NRA certified instructor, you would do us all a BIG favor by making a detailed complaint to the NRA about this highly unprofessional and dangerous instructor. If possible, ask the NRA to give you contact information for your local training counselor (the one who certified that instructor) and make sure he is aware of the problem. They can - and must - withdraw that certification if the person refuses to follow NRA policy.

    As an NRA certified instructor, we are PROHIBITED from giving any such legal advice or information in the class. I am not a lawyer and CANNOT give legal advice. I don't even offer a print out of the state law here, but urge my students to look it up themselves, and ask questions at the sheriff's office when/if they go to apply for a CC permit.

    I teach self defense, including CC, but carry openly myself most of the time.
    Please understand that a CCW class IS NOT, I repeat IS NOT, a NRA class in any shape or form. The NRA will not lay claim to it and absolutely will not accept any liability for a NRA instructor that teaches CCW using NRA creds. It matters not if "legal" is presented in the class as CCW instructors are "required by statute" to cover the applicable CCW statute and the justifications for the use of force statute. If you're a Missouri CCW instructor and have been failing to teach these in your course then you are not in compliance with the statute.

    See RSMO 571.111.2 through 571.111.6
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-29-2010 at 08:22 PM.

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    MamaLiberty is in Wyoming, not Missouri.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter64738 View Post
    MamaLiberty is in Wyoming, not Missouri.
    Well then, my sincerest apologies if I seemed forceful in any way ML. You'd clearly not be familiar with Missouri CCW statutes that tend to create some grounds for interesting arguments from time to time.

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