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Thread: Trouble at the Rock Financial Gunshow

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    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    Trouble at the Rock Financial Gunshow

    I tried to enter the Rock Financial Gun & Knife show today with my son. The wife of the promoter said I couldn't enter with my weapon. She said it was illegal because the capacity was over 2500. I told her I was a CPL holder open carrying which allowed me and she said I was wrong and that she worked with ATF all the time and that the OC'ers were wrong in their assumption of how he law works. She then told me to in a very snotty way I needed to learn the law before trying to carry a weapon. It'd be safer for me and the public that way. I told her she needed to learn the law and walked out after demanding my money back for entrance and parking.

    I tried to be polite until she got really snotty attitude. Then all I wanted was my money back and to leave. How does someone who is a gun show promoter act like this towards a law abiding citizen?

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDog View Post
    ..... and that she worked with ATF all the time.......
    Give her this, for me....


    Last edited by fozzy71; 09-26-2010 at 06:32 PM. Reason: .
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Contact info?

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    I went to the show yesterday as well. I OC'd all the way up to where you check your firearms in. The lady there asked if my weapon was loaded, I said yes. She then asked if I was an LEO, I said no. She said I couldn't carry a loaded firearm in that building because of insurance reasons.

    She then asked if I would step out and unload my firearm, which I did. She then zip tied my gun and placed my magazine in a ziplock bag and kept it with her. I then got a chance to retrieve my magazine once I was ready to leave. I was however not aloud to reload my weapon in the building.

    She was very nice and it really wasn't a problem at all.

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    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    If the executioner was polite... would you let him hang you?

    Not trying to start a flame fest or anything but the "they were nice/polite" thing always gets me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    If the executioner was polite... would you let him hang you?
    +1

    Always carry an extra mag, and a cutting tool of some sort should be standard equipment. Handy for many things, like zip ties.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDog View Post
    I tried to enter the Rock Financial Gun & Knife show today with my son. The wife of the promoter said I couldn't enter with my weapon. She said it was illegal because the capacity was over 2500. I told her I was a CPL holder open carrying which allowed me and she said I was wrong and that she worked with ATF all the time and that the OC'ers were wrong in their assumption of how he law works. She then told me to in a very snotty way I needed to learn the law before trying to carry a weapon. It'd be safer for me and the public that way. I told her she needed to learn the law and walked out after demanding my money back for entrance and parking.

    I tried to be polite until she got really snotty attitude. Then all I wanted was my money back and to leave. How does someone who is a gun show promoter act like this towards a law abiding citizen?
    Is this a private venue? If so, the owner prevails. If this is public property then I think you were correct & shame on them. I know Rock no longer owners the name rights & the name will be changed soon.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Is this [Rock Financial Gunshow] a private venue? If so, the owner prevails.
    The owner prevails if he simply tells you to leave. The owner doesn't prevail if he's wrong about the law and saying you have to leave because you are "illegal", which seems to be the case here.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    The owner prevails if he simply tells you to leave. The owner doesn't prevail if he's wrong about the law and saying you have to leave because you are "illegal", which seems to be the case here.
    If the owner/management tells you to leave, you leave. It doesn't matter if their reasons are incorrect.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If the owner/management tells you to leave, you leave. It doesn't matter if their reasons are incorrect.
    The person asking you to leave must be the owner or agent of the owner. In this case the person putting on the show is not the owner of the building. As far as agent of the owner, you would have to see the contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lotus1 View Post
    I went to the show yesterday as well. I OC'd all the way up to where you check your firearms in. The lady there asked if my weapon was loaded, I said yes. She then asked if I was an LEO, I said no. She said I couldn't carry a loaded firearm in that building because of insurance reasons.

    She then asked if I would step out and unload my firearm, which I did. She then zip tied my gun and placed my magazine in a ziplock bag and kept it with her. I then got a chance to retrieve my magazine once I was ready to leave. I was however not aloud to reload my weapon in the building.

    She was very nice and it really wasn't a problem at all.
    Pretty sure I saw you leaving at the same time I was. You had one magazine in your hand and another in a leather holster as you were leaving?

    Back on topic, I don't really mind the no-carry rule at gun shows. Because alls it would take it one idiot who sees his Glock in a case and says "THATS THE SAME ONE I HAVE" and pulls it out and blasts a hole in the floor (or shoots someone) and then it become more media fodder to ban gun shows. Although I don't buy the "insurance" reason that was given. "Insurance" lets high explosives sit around for the public to handle, open knives, thousands of guns without open chamber indicators on them etc etc but not for you to conceal a firearm? I think a better reason would just be that it's private property and the owner does not allow non-vendors to carry into the show for fear of an incident that would cause the show to get moved or banned altogether. For those that would say that "Well criminals could still shoot up the place and no one would be armed!", all of the vendors are allowed to carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sefner View Post
    Pretty sure I saw you leaving at the same time I was. You had one magazine in your hand and another in a leather holster as you were leaving?

    Back on topic, I don't really mind the no-carry rule at gun shows. Because alls it would take it one idiot who sees his Glock in a case and says "THATS THE SAME ONE I HAVE" and pulls it out and blasts a hole in the floor (or shoots someone) and then it become more media fodder to ban gun shows. Although I don't buy the "insurance" reason that was given. "Insurance" lets high explosives sit around for the public to handle, open knives, thousands of guns without open chamber indicators on them etc etc but not for you to conceal a firearm? I think a better reason would just be that it's private property and the owner does not allow non-vendors to carry into the show for fear of an incident that would cause the show to get moved or banned altogether. For those that would say that "Well criminals could still shoot up the place and no one would be armed!", all of the vendors are allowed to carry.
    If it was an owner rule then how come you can carry a loaded weapon at any other event at the facility? It is a rule of the people putting on the gun show only not the facility. I carry at the builders ,boat and snowmobile shows there without problems every year. Yes I go to the gun shows also,I don't like the rule because it causes people to load and unload there weapons in public. Just asking for something to go wrong without a safety barrell to load and unload.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If the owner/management tells you to leave, you leave. It doesn't matter if their reasons are incorrect.
    The scenario and statements made by the wife of the promoter presented by the OP did not involve an owner/manager telling someone to leave:

    "The wife of the promoter said I couldn't enter with my weapon. She said it was illegal because the capacity was over 2500."

    This is not an instruction or request to leave. At this point, it is simply a misunderstanding of law which you may have the opportunity to politely discuss with the person and correct.

    "She then told me to in a very snotty way I needed to learn the law before trying to carry a weapon. It'd be safer for me and the public that way."

    This also is not an instruction or request to leave. You are merely being actively insulted. Since it seems at this point it may be difficult to discuss the person's misunderstanding and misapplication of the law, it is quite acceptable to politely ask for this person's supervisor or the manager in charge and see if the misunderstanding of law can be resolved.

    I do not disagree with the statement that you leave private property when asked to leave. However, at no point in this scenario presented by the OP was an instruction or request to leave issued. The OP was free to remain at the entrance, keep a cool head, ask for a supervisor or manager in charge, and see if the misunderstanding and misapplication of law could be corrected. Now, if the person in charge says, "Yes, she's wrong about the law but we don't want CC or OC guns in here due to our policy" then you've obtained the necessary clarification and you can't go through the entrance into that venue obviously. Note, however, that if that is the response, it is still not a request to leave the premises. So, if you are so inclined, you are still free to conduct legal transactions anywhere else on the premises (in accordance, of course, with applicable rules covering the whole premises).

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM
    The owner prevails if he simply tells you to leave. The owner doesn't prevail if he's wrong about the law and saying you have to leave because you are "illegal", which seems to be the case here.
    If the owner/management tells you to leave, you leave. It doesn't matter if their reasons are incorrect.
    What I mean by "prevail" is in whether or not you ultimately are compelled to leave.

    1) In the scenario of an owner simply telling you to leave, as I said, he prevails and you are compelled to leave.

    2) In the scenario of an owner saying you have to leave because you are "illegal", you may be able to discuss with the owner his misunderstanding. If the owner is a reasonable person and has been complete and truthful in declaring his reason for asking you to leave, he will realize his reason was wrong and he will allow you to remain. Thus, he does not prevail and you are not compelled to leave.

    Now, if an owner presents scenario (2) initially, but then jumps to scenario (1) in order to just get rid of you, then he prevails and you are compelled to leave. In that case, I'm sorry that you've run into a dishonest and unreasonable owner, but all that I've said above is not in error in any way.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotus1 View Post
    I went to the show yesterday as well. I OC'd all the way up to where you check your firearms in. The lady there asked if my weapon was loaded, I said yes. She then asked if I was an LEO, I said no. She said I couldn't carry a loaded firearm in that building because of insurance reasons.

    She then asked if I would step out and unload my firearm, which I did. She then zip tied my gun and placed my magazine in a ziplock bag and kept it with her. I then got a chance to retrieve my magazine once I was ready to leave. I was however not aloud to reload my weapon in the building.

    She was very nice and it really wasn't a problem at all.

    I am getting a bit tired of gun show promoters telling law abiding citizens that they can't carry a loaded pistol @ gun shows because of insurance reasons. I am starting to wonder if this is true. Does anyone here have any solid information regarding this? It seems that we are taking their statement at face value without looking into the truth of the statement. If anyone here has direct, verifiable information that insurance providers either do or do not have a prohibition regarding loaded firearms, please feel free to post here or send me a PM with the information; I'd really like to know the truth regarding this issue.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    If we could find out what insurance outfit would cover such an event, I suppose the simplest way to answer this, is to ask them ourselves.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    I have a crazy idea.

    Let's find out who runs this show. Who is in charge and ask them. Not the wife but the guy who is making the show run and taking the money. If he says that's his position, then I am ready to write a letter to tell him I am supporting and PROMOTING a boycott of all his shows and functions. if it is the insurance company then let's identify who they are and write them letters telling them in no uncertain terms we are supporting a nation wide boycott since they are trying to suppress our Constitutional rights. I have written letters and I will if I know whom to write. I never heard of a Rock financial gun show prior to this and am not even sure where they hold these. But I am ready to put action where me heart is. Anyone else on board for this simple task?

    Note I did NOT say email them. over half of the emails sent to corporations are never read. A letter delivered to the CEO gets read. You can also send an e-mail but it's a good bet it will never be read by a real person as opposed to a bot.


    Edit: I googled Rock Financial and all I see is a building or some kind of civic center in Novi?


    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I am getting a bit tired of gun show promoters telling law abiding citizens that they can't carry a loaded pistol @ gun shows because of insurance reasons. I am starting to wonder if this is true. Does anyone here have any solid information regarding this? It seems that we are taking their statement at face value without looking into the truth of the statement. If anyone here has direct, verifiable information that insurance providers either do or do not have a prohibition regarding loaded firearms, please feel free to post here or send me a PM with the information; I'd really like to know the truth regarding this issue.
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 09-27-2010 at 02:23 PM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    The Rock Financial Gun Show is called such as it is held at the Rock Financial Center.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    I have a crazy idea.

    Let's find out who runs this show. Who is in charge and ask them. Not the wife but the guy who is making the show run and taking the money. If he says that's his position, then I am ready to write a letter to tell him I am supporting and PROMOTING a boycott of all his shows and functions. if it is the insurance company then let's identify who they are and write them letters telling them in no uncertain terms we are supporting a nation wide boycott since they are trying to suppress our Constitutional rights. I have written letters and I will if I know whom to write. I never heard of a Rock financial gun show prior to this and am not even sure where they hold these. But I am ready to put action where me heart is. Anyone else on board for this simple task?

    Note I did NOT say email them. over half of the emails sent to corporations are never read. A letter delivered to the CEO gets read. You can also send an e-mail but it's a good bet it will never be read by a real person as opposed to a bot.


    Edit: I googled Rock Financial and all I see is a building or some kind of civic center in Novi?
    It looks like the show is promoted by Sport Show Promotions Inc. Phone (517)676-4160 PO Box404 Mason Mi.48854 . Website WWW.migunshows.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by maustin195 View Post
    It looks like the show is promoted by Sport Show Promotions Inc. Phone (517)676-4160 PO Box404 Mason Mi.48854 . Website WWW.migunshows.com
    I discussed this with the promoters a couple of years ago. And if I recall correctly they admitted it was just that they didn't want people to carry because there are too many dumb asses around.

    Keep in mind this is the owner of total firearms in Mason and they don't allow OC in there store for the same reason. I have tried many times to convince them that OC possess no threat, etc... yadda yadda, but as about 4 months ago they are still against it.

    I suggest contacting them and voicing you complaint and tell them about other shows and gun stores that allow OC and you will be shopping at those places instead of Total Firearms and their shows.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maustin195 View Post
    It looks like the show is promoted by Sport Show Promotions Inc. Phone (517)676-4160 PO Box404 Mason Mi.48854 . Website WWW.migunshows.com
    I noticed on Sport Show Promotions Inc.`s web page,down near the bottom,MGO has a link to their website.
    So I assume MGO pays for advertising on that site.
    Maybe we can have officials from MGO get to the bottom of this issue. The promoters
    might be inclined to listen to their sponsers.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I see that the gun-show insurance promoted by the NRA DOES ask: Are loaded firearms, magazines or clips prohibited on the premises for anyone other than police, law
    enforcement or hired security? My guess is that they will charge more or choose not to insure a show that allows loaded pistols on the premises.

    http://www.locktonaffinity.com/nrain...gunshowapp.pdf
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    "Pretty sure I saw you leaving at the same time I was. You had one magazine in your hand and another in a leather holster as you were leaving?"

    lol, yup, that was me. Once I got outside I put the magazine in, chambered a round then holstered my weapon.
    Last edited by lotus1; 09-27-2010 at 09:59 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I see that the gun-show insurance promoted by the NRA DOES ask: Are loaded firearms, magazines or clips prohibited on the premises for anyone other than police, law
    enforcement or hired security? My guess is that they will charge more or choose not to insure a show that allows loaded pistols on the premises.

    http://www.locktonaffinity.com/nrain...gunshowapp.pdf
    I am not sure 1 more no would make any difference. At least D,E,H,I all are no answers probably more.

  25. #25
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    I went to that show with a friend, and encountered that same woman. She definitely seemed like a push over, but I didn't have the same experience, because we simply informed her that we were unarmed. She asked me something like "seriously, no guns?" as we were walking by her, and I snapped at her "No, no guns, but we're looking to buy some". She seemed in my opinion judging by the tone of her voice at that point to think that we were probably armed, but that we knew the way things worked, so she'd satisfied her job, and needed to move on to the next people coming through the door.

    My guess is that at least one in 3 people there carried concealed to the show, and quite a few, including us left concealing a new gun or 5.

    It amazes me that these shows always have people running them who are uneducated people with little or no business being there, and they get backed with absurd rules. The sad thing is it's still a better environment than the majority of Michigan gun shops.
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