Armed America Radio Interview

That Rob guy is clueless. I don't want gunfights in the parking lot. Who does?

They didn't understand that even the guys who complied under duress got Disorderly Conduct tickets.

I called in and started to straighten them out. They at least admit that we are on the correct path for education.

Hey Paul! I'm from California but was listening in. I agree. Rob has tunnel vision and was missing the point. The OCers were not bothering anybody-- not being "disorderly." in fact the transcript of the 911 call seems to make the point that even the woman who made the call soon realized that there was no cause for alarm. The OCers weren't trying to create a confrontation-- the police did that.

What episode is that?

XDSTEEL said:

What episode is that?

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Tonight. Started around 8:30 pm or so. They interviewed Shotgun from WCI and kinda cut him off and was raggin' on us for 1. OC'ing even though that's all we can do, and 2. We should of given ID even though when 3 of us did we still got tickets.

Then, Bob from Madison calls and even though he has guns thinks we shouldn't do what we did.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

XDSTEEL said:

What episode is that?

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The one that's still on right now.

RR_Broccoli said:

The one that's still on right now.

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i did a web search and found nothing, do you not have a link ?

XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX said:

i did a web search and found nothing, do you not have a link ?

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http://armedamericanradio.org/

I did find that site aswell just had difficulty comming up with the interview in question. sorry i shouldn't have said found nothing....

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

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No kidding!

Of course, there are lots of people seeing through the police and "news" reports!

XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX said:

I did find that site aswell just had difficulty comming up with the interview in question. sorry i shouldn't have said found nothing....

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It's live now so it won't be posted until tomorrow. Same page, at the bottom, you see the previous weeks. Tomorrow, todays broadcast will be there.

Mark is now reading an email from "Dan" in Milwaukee saying you guys should have handed over your IDs. First of all, those who didn't were cleared of obstructing.. so it made no difference.

Paul, you made a good point that if we just go ahead and give up our rights where does it end? Here in California we have UOC, and it's suggested that you tell police that you do not consent to unreasonable searches of your person per the 4th amendment. If after telling the LEO this and that you do not comply with "requests" only lawful orders and the LEO orders you to produce ID you have a case later.

I do think these guys are semi-clueless on some of this.

Well, crap. I was hoping they would be a bit more supportive of the Madison 5's rights.

I think the radio guys tried, but they're unable to grasp the full dynamics of being in an open carry ONLY state. They focused on basically, a non-issue: the ID. It's a moot point. People can argue all they want whether it is better to turn your ID over to the police immediately or to stand your ground. It is a matter of opinion. A matter of FACT, however is that it is a RIGHT to refuse to provide ID under those circumstances, and a fact that it was beyond the lawful authority of the police to demand ID.

As Paul pointed out on the show, the police were determined to give the guys tickets for something no matter what they did or didn't do. Once the police realized the obstruction tickets had no chance in hell of sticking they simply substituted something else. And since they couldn't stick d/o/c on just the guys who refused ID, they gave it to all of them.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit. The letter I received stated that I caused the caller fear so I get a DC ticket. The caller only called in 2 of us. If the ticket truly stemmed from the call, should only the 2 get any ticket?

If so, the two who 'caused' the call aren't even the same two who 'refused' ID.

Anyhow, this just shows how many holes are in Madison's case.

And, before anyone jumps on my case, I am not suggesting that ANYONE deserves a ticket for ANYTHING. None of us did ANYTHING illegal or 'disturbing'.

Paul, I don't think anybody here from WI thinks they deserved a ticket.

If the line of reasoning (the complaint from the phone call) is the source for the disorderly conduct citations, they are going to have pretty hard time with it. Unless there was some other 911 call we haven't heard yet or something. The woman says at the end of the call "no problem" (paraphrasing).

If there was some sort of other complaint, they'd be focusing on that one instead.

On the other side of the coin, even after the cops left, the folks in the restaurant were curious, not frightened, there was the invitation to go back to Culvers after the Baraboo Picnic.

Depending on the details of how a DC charge is justified in court, these things may cause the DC tickets to go away.

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One thing I think a lot of people have missed was mentioned at the picnic in Baraboo that may be important for some of the context, the driver of the car from where the woman called was mentioned to be retired LEO of some kind. He was feeding her details to tell the dispatcher "black t-shirt with white outline of State of Wisconsin", etc. (Anybody have more details on this?)

The initial phone call motivation then, may be more like "Gorramn hippies in Madison are at it again! [Cartman Voice] Respect mah authoritah! [/Cartman Voice]" I.e that of a police officer that doesn't think that civilians should be allowed to have guns or whatever other emotional prejudices he's carrying around from his career caused the call. I realize not all LEOs are like that, but we have seen some pretty clear demonstrations over at that police forum thread about THIS forum recently, and it's a daily occurrence over at AR15.com.

The point being, the 911 call may not be the totality of the opinion that caused the phone call.

Brocolli,

I understand, I'm just adding one additional hole to the leaky sieve that is Madison's 'case'.

Hey guys.

For those who haven't listened to the discussion, I hope you get the chance to. It will be available at the link above soon.

Paul,

As I said, I appreciate and respect your willingness to come on the air and discuss the situation.

Just to clarify my perspective, I am a personal defense instructor. My interest is that everyone gets home safe. From what I understand of the situation, no tickets should have been issued and no arrests were warranted. I don't think being asked for your ID is worth getting shot over. There is a way to deal with that situation by cooperating with the police requests and then following up with the appropriate legal action, complaints to the department/city and publicity/media that can serve to educate. A confrontation in the parking lot doesn't necessarily do that... and as soon as you refuse to comply with the police requests you are causing a confrontation that could escalate dramatically. Being Right and Being Shot, tased or (as happened) arrested or cited isn't really a win in my book.

If you listen to the discussion (even again), you will see that Mark and I were both very clear that we understand Wisconsin doesn't provide the option of Concealed Carry at this time. I think that makes education of the public and law enforcement officers very important. Think of all the time & energy (possibly money as well) that is now going into the defense of the guys involved... that energy could've been better served to raise funds for education initiatives that reach out to people who won't come to a gun shop, IDPA match or a Pro-Gun Open House. A billboard in Madison that shows a family walking down the street with the adults legally armed and some obvious "Carrying a Gun for Protection is Legal" message, for example, might have kept that woman from calling in the first place. I stand by my position that if the police ask you for ID, you give it to them. If you feel that your rights were infringed fight it out in court as was done in Racine... maybe you'll win some money to fund the billboard so that it doesn't happen to the next guy.

Again, to be clear, from what I understand, I don't think that you guys deserved arrest, citation or any attention from the police at all... but that I think that becomes irrelevant in that parking lot for the 10 minutes that cooperation with the police could've de-escalated the situation.

As for "With friends like that, who needs enemies?":

"Friends don't let friends drive drunk" has become a popular saying in our country... I like to think that my friends would also try to keep me from getting shot needlessly by a cop who misunderstands a situation and makes a tragic mistake.

-RJP

We have only the rights that we defend.

@Rob Pincus -

Give up one right .. give up another ... give up another .. wake up in communist new america ?

Personal opinions are like a***les ... we all have them. Telling someone to give up a constitutional right because it would have " de escalated " the situation is ridiculous in my opinion and in all honesty personally offensive to me.

There was NEVER a situation until the Madison PD created one.

Lets be honest here Rob, this is a business for you, you make money from it, you appear on shows to get your name out there to make more money ... see where I'm going with this ?

Open carry without permitting is not good for you = less of a payday.

Rob Pincus said:

Hey guys.

For those who haven't listened to the discussion, I hope you get the chance to. It will be available at the link above soon.

Paul,

As I said, I appreciate and respect your willingness to come on the air and discuss the situation.
-RJP

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I agree, no one wants to be shot.

My point is, even those of us who 'cooperated' (Madison police department words in letter I received) received disorderly conduct tickets.

I believe there was NOTHING more I could of done other than not show up at Culvers that would of gotten me out of a confrontation with the cops. As soon as the 911 call was made, our die was cast.

As for the enemies comment, it might of been a little strong, however, I'm tired of people saying basically 'I had it coming'.

I have been OC'ing for well over a year and this is the 1st time I've ever had a cop even talk to me.