• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Armed America Radio Interview

RockerFor2A

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
145
Location
Lemon Grove, CA
...and as soon as you refuse to comply with the police requests you are causing a confrontation that could escalate dramatically.

Does this mean the legality of the request is irrelevant? Problem is you are waiving rights by complying with "requests." If you simply comply without asking the officer to clarify whether he is requesting or ordering, I'd be concerned you have forfeited any grounds to challenge this *later* as you suggest one could do.

As to the police feeling frustrated by citizens who know their rights and don't knuckle under to intimidation-- what can you say? To the degree that law abiding citizens fear their own police force and forfeit their rights, that is the degree to which we resemble a banana republic and not a free nation.

Again, bottom line for me is that unless someone has a voice recorder and clearly states that they do not comply with "requests" and do not waive their 4th amendment rights, I'm concerned that they have given up any recourse. It's the same principle as police saying "Do you mind if we search your car?" The moment you consent, you've waived your rights.

And I am actually very pro-law enforcement, and I used to think "Well, if you've done nothing wrong, why not just give up your rights voluntarily?" but I am concerned that as we law-abiding citizens have done this trying to be "nice guys," LE has adopted an expectation that we should consent to all sorts of violations of our rights and punish us when we don't.

I admire every one of these OCers, and their courage to stand on principle. What happened to them was unjust and the fallout from this will surely educate LE.
 

Brass Magnet

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
2,818
Location
Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
Hey guys.
[snip]
Again, to be clear, from what I understand, I don't think that you guys deserved arrest, citation or any attention from the police at all... but that I think that becomes irrelevant in that parking lot for the 10 minutes that cooperation with the police could've de-escalated the situation.
[snip]
-RJP
Have you listened to the same recordings that we have?

There was NO escalation from the 5. The 2 POLITELY declined to give their ID. If there were different circumstances and Police had weapons drawn then I can agree with you because it's an obvious case of being under duress and an illegal seizure with no consent. If everyone would have just given their ID they would have surrendered their rights meaninglessly and would be in worse shape today because of it.

If we don't exercise our rights in parking lots in a non-violent unescalated situation when should we exercise them?

This isn't just about 2A. If we don't exercise and respect all of our rights we can't expect anyone to respect them, and that includes the Police.

We have only the rights that we defend.
Amen.

I'll not give up any of my rights that so many have fought so hard to protect.
 

RR_Broccoli

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
170
Location
WI
Someone PLEASE point out to me where this

"Don't show ID = Get Shot"

argument is coming from? :banghead: :cuss:

If you cannot lay out why you think failure to show ID will result in gunfire, I suggest you not mention it.

What I really see this saying, is if you do not comply with police, you will be shot. (Even if the request illegitimate.) Which is either a threat, or paranoid delusion depending who the person mentioning it works for.

No matter which of the two camps above you are in, the argument is particularly worthless for ironing out what occurred at Culvers because guess what NOBODY GOT SHOT. Wearing a holstered gun, does not eliminate the option to talk. And just because the person is not a cop, and has a gun, it is not automatically a threat to the police.

Furthermore hearing this as someone who does not have one of the rare and illusive concealed carry permits in WI, mentioning it indicates to me you have no consideration for my existing (or remaining) rights whatsoever and are only concerned with pushing whatever agenda follows that statement.

Right now I can go about my business armed while open carrying, or I can go about my business basically defenseless. This is a fact. The sooner you swallow this fact, the faster we'll come to an ending that works for everybody.

The Madison Police chose to make this an issue. If they didn't want a lawsuit, they could have changed their behavior, apologized, dropped the charges, then shut up. THEIR CHOICES took us here. It is unfortunate they didn't realize the full consequences of their actions until it was too late, however our rights are worth more than smoothing over their "sorry we got caught violating your rights" regrets.
 

Nutczak

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
2,165
Location
The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
WTF? Are you really advocating people just waive their rights to appease the police?

Hey guys.

For those who haven't listened to the discussion, I hope you get the chance to. It will be available at the link above soon.

Paul,

As I said, I appreciate and respect your willingness to come on the air and discuss the situation.

Just to clarify my perspective, I am a personal defense instructor. My interest is that everyone gets home safe. From what I understand of the situation, no tickets should have been issued and no arrests were warranted. I don't think being asked for your ID is worth getting shot over. There is a way to deal with that situation by cooperating with the police requests and then following up with the appropriate legal action, complaints to the department/city and publicity/media that can serve to educate. A confrontation in the parking lot doesn't necessarily do that... and as soon as you refuse to comply with the police requests you are causing a confrontation that could escalate dramatically. Being Right and Being Shot, tased or (as happened) arrested or cited isn't really a win in my book.

Am I reading your statement correctly? Are you advocating that people freely waive their rights because if they don't the police will treat it as "Contempt of Cop" and tase, beat, or shoot someone because they are defending their constitutionally protected rights"

Should we just not defend ourselves and our loved ones against people who wish to do us harm anymore because the police may get upset that we choose to take responsibility for our own well-being?

What show are you part of? The armed communist?
Dude, just go away and please quit broadcasting your deluded opinions.
We stand up for our rights, not waive them freely at every request, why don't you grow a pair and try it for yourself!
 

RockerFor2A

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
145
Location
Lemon Grove, CA
I appreciate what you guys are doing out there in Wisconsin. I hope you don't mind my following along and even participating to some extent, even though I'm out in the People's Republic of Kalifornia. Supposedly we DO have conceal carry permits out here, but it's nigh impossible for most people to get one. Hence, there's an OC movement out here, which as most of you know has to be UOC.

But the struggle of the Madison 5 is a struggle that we all share across the whole country, and all of us who worry about adherence to our constitution should do what we can to help out.

One issue I wonder about is whether holding a concealed carry permit (which must be renewed) might cause the permit holder to be more measured in his criticism of law enforcement personnel? I think most of us here would agree that most LE are normal folks like you or I who are tasked with a difficult yet crucial job and they do the best they can. We generally try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Yet in some cases it's clear that they make mistakes and when that happens they need to be accountable. And when I see someone who holds CCW permit being exceptionally cautious about criticizing actions of LEOs, I have to wonder if in the back of their mind they're worried about perhaps being mysteriously denied when their CCW comes up for renewal, and then having to incur legal expenses and other hassle to have the denial reviewed, etc.?

This is one of the reasons that as sensible as it seems, issuance of permits in an environment where the criteria is not transparent, open, and objective is worrisome. Unless we have a system where criteria is clearly laid out and as long as you meet X,Y,Z requirements, you CANNOT be denied, then it seems there could be the potential for abuse in that politicians/LE administrators could deny renewals to CCW holders who are a little too outspoken.

Just a thought. Sorry if I'm drifting OT. (Not sure what the post about a topic "drifting left" is supposed to mean?)
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I'm sure you'll be able to use what we have here to get some of your rights back out there.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
This is slightly off topic but I'm getting tired of people telling me that cc will fix everything. cc won't! If we become a cc only state, people will not be used to seeing handguns so if someone has their shirt come up and someone sees it, they will be much more likely to call the cops. If we get cc in WI, I plan on oc'ing more than I cc.

If the police do not learn how to enforce the laws we have now, adding cc into the mix will only make it worse. If we have to get a permit for cc, officers will think that us oc'ers will willingly hand over our ID.

No matter what, no permits, no training. It works in AZ, AK and VT, no point in re-inventing the wheel.

Here's why I should've been sterile carrying and should've refused to ID.

If they couldn't ID me, they would not be able to mail me my citation. I'm not a lawyer but I would think that the forced relinquishing of my 5th amendment rights allowed me to actually be charged with disorderly conduct. In my opinion, that is fruit of the poisoned tree so no DC ticket. Obviously the ticket itself is unlawful but this goes to show that the 'law enforcement' folks don't know the law!
 

Mark Walters

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
11
Location
GA
Love the Bravado

Am I reading your statement correctly? Are you advocating that people freely waive their rights because if they don't the police will treat it as "Contempt of Cop" and tase, beat, or shoot someone because they are defending their constitutionally protected rights"

Should we just not defend ourselves and our loved ones against people who wish to do us harm anymore because the police may get upset that we choose to take responsibility for our own well-being?

What show are you part of? The armed communist?
Dude, just go away and please quit broadcasting your deluded opinions.
We stand up for our rights, not waive them freely at every request, why don't you grow a pair and try it for yourself!


My humble opinion...

In this case, the situation did not escalate...What Rob is saying is that it could have...the ingredients were there for it to happen...Thankfully it did not but in many instances across the nation, it does escalate...and when it does, no one wins.

Armed communist? Quit broadcasting your deluded opinions? Grow a pair? What show are you part of?

Rob is a part of:

SWAT TV
Best Defense-Co Host (Outdoor Channel)
Best Defense Survival-Co Host (Outdoor Channel)
I.C.E. Training (Owner/Founder)
Combat Focus Shooting (Developer and Founder)
Personal Defense Video DVD Series (Developer/Owner)

Some background:

"Rob Pincus is a professional trainer, author and consultant. He and his staff at I.C.E. Training Company provide services to military, law enforcement, private security and students interested in self-defense.

Rob provides efficient training methodologies to those interested in developing firearms, tactical operations and defensive skills. These methods stress gaining maximum value from limited training resources and working well with what the body does naturally under real world conditions.

Rob is the developer of the Combat Focus Shooting program, which has been integrated into military, law enforcement and defensive training programs throughout the United States and Europe. For over a decade, Rob’s ideas on training and techniques have been shared through articles in a variety of publications, television appearances, training DVDs and presentations at various conferences.

In 2006, Rob began developing the Personal Defense Video DVD Series, which covers a wide range of defensive and security topics and often features guest instructors in specialty areas. To date, over 1 million copies of the Combat Focus Shooting video alone have been distributed through the NRA to its Members.

Rob has experience as a law enforcement officer and executive protection agent and was also commissioned as an officer in the United States Army Reserve after graduating from the Military College of Vermont with a degree in Political Science. Rob serves the San Miguel County Sheriff’s Office as a Training Officer and has been a staff writer with S.W.A.T. Magazine since 2001.

From 2003 through 2007, Rob was the Director of The Valhalla Training Center in Montrose, Colorado. Rob developed the training doctrines and programs that brought Valhalla to the attention of the entire shooting industry as a leading source of reality based firearms training. During this time, Valhalla was identified by the Rand Corporation as a leader in private sector reality based training and as a sole source provider to 10th Group Army Special Forces for Extreme Close Quarters Counter Ambush training".

All of us are in agreement that the situation should never have happened and I am thankful that it did not escalate. Paul and the rest of his group will be vindicated and we will do whatever we can on my program to help and expose these events on the air whenever we can.

Having said that:

Your sarcastic reference to my radio program as "Armed Communist" is highly offensive.

Every week I speak nationwide...as does Rob when he can make it...of your right to defend yourself and your family on over 60 radio stations, to hundreds of cities, in 22 states and DC and over 18 countries, reaching thousands upon thousands of people in the ongoing effort to educate rational, clear thinking people about the right to keep and bear arms. I have appeared on national television to champion our freedoms and spoken on the Mall in Washington as well as discussed our freedoms on countless local radio shows across America. I have co-authored a book to enlighten people about the RKBA and am currently working on the second edition.

I have received hate mail from some of the vile elements of the anti-freedom, gun-hating whacko's whose contents I wouldn't repeat. I take extra precautions now to make sure some nutcase doesn't decide to take their hatred for what I talk about (YOUR rights) out on me or my family.

What does "Nutczak" do every day to fight the ongoing battle for our freedoms besides complain on an internet board???

Mark Walters
Host
Armed American Radio
 

rotty

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
217
Location
Minneapolis Minnesota
My humble opinion...

In this case, the situation did not escalate...What Rob is saying is that it could have...the ingredients were there for it to happen...Thankfully it did not but in many instances across the nation, it does escalate...and when it does, no one wins.
What does "Nutczak" do every day to fight the ongoing battle for our freedoms besides complain on an internet board???

Mark Walters
Host
Armed American Radio

Ok as I previously stated why should someone give up a right ? Because Mark's OPINION is that he should ?

As far as someone else's opinion "Nutczak's" who are YOU to judge anyone exercising a first amendment right ?

I don't care how many millions you speak to, in how many countries you do it in, if you state opinion as fact you are and always will be a joke in my eyes along with your little friend mark too.

Lets not split hairs here .. you BOTH do what you do to get PAID.

After reading Mark's bio again it's becoming more clear .. LEO background, LEO attitude.
 
Last edited:

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
My humble opinion...

Mark,

I appreciate you and your show and Rob. I guess my point is that it seemed that you guys didn't seem to listen to either the 911 call or the audio of the actual encounter.

I agree, I REALLY don't want to be shot. All 5 of us were extremely polite. We kept our hands in plain sight at all times, we didn't call names, 3 of the 5 at first refused to produce ID but when it was obvious that it would be force ably obtained, we provided it under duress.

At no time did the police touch their weapons that I could see so we were not threatened with violence.

We continued a dialog throughout the whole encounter so that the police would realize we knew the law and that we were not waving our rights but would not resist.

The reason I was upset with the tone of Rob specifically is that I interpreted what he was saying is give the police whatever they want and then let the courts figure it out later. From what I understand, if you do not assert your rights verbally, the police can then argue that it was a consentual stop and that they talked you into it. Once it was clear it was no longer consentual (I asked, am I free to go, and the police said, no, you are being detained) I wanted to put on the record I was not OK with that but would comply under duress.
 
Last edited:

Brass Magnet

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
2,818
Location
Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
[snip]
Every week I speak nationwide...as does Rob when he can make it...of your right to defend yourself and your family on over 60 radio stations, to hundreds of cities, in 22 states and DC and over 18 countries, reaching thousands upon thousands of people in the ongoing effort to educate rational, clear thinking people about the right to keep and bear arms. I have appeared on national television to champion our freedoms and spoken on the Mall in Washington as well as discussed our freedoms on countless local radio shows across America. I have co-authored a book to enlighten people about the RKBA and am currently working on the second edition.

I have received hate mail from some of the vile elements of the anti-freedom, gun-hating whacko's whose contents I wouldn't repeat. I take extra precautions now to make sure some nutcase doesn't decide to take their hatred for what I talk about (YOUR rights) out on me or my family.

What does "Nutczak" do every day to fight the ongoing battle for our freedoms besides complain on an internet board???

Mark Walters
Host
Armed American Radio

AND?
All you just posted about was 2A, this isnt just about 2A. If you tell your listeners to waive their rights you are doing them a great disservice. The "boots on the ground" members of this forum and WCI should take offense with your assertion that we do nothing but complain on an internet board. What we do is stand up for our rights (all of them) and it just so happened that some of us got arrested so that you had something to talk about on your radio show.

Why don't you understand that if we didn't have 1, 3, 4, and 5A; in conjunction with 14A, we would't have 2A? And if we don't exercise our rights, the state will just feel free to trample on them anytime they'd like and pretty soon we won't have any.

As I said in my previous post, if the situation was different and the people in Madison were under obvious duress in an "escalated" situation, I'm sure they would have showed their ID's. What you seem to be saying is that not showing ID's could have escalated the situation. Well, if that's the case they could escalate ANY situation and we should just bend over to the states police power and let them do whatever they want to us. I think not.
 

Underdog

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
18
Location
, ,
That's a wrap folks!

Mark, you and Rob remind me of da Rev. Jackson and da Rev. Sharpton.

Many of us do whatever we can to protect all of our rights. We just don't focus on cashing in while doing it.
 
Last edited:

Mark Walters

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
11
Location
GA
Thanks Paul

The email coming in is 5-1 supportive. We'll have you on to follow up soon...You and Auric were great spokesmen for your cause on the air.

Rotty, I believe you have me confused with Rob.

Brass Magnet, I do not recall telling anyone to give up their rights?? As far as your taking offense at my "assertion" that all of you complain on internet boards...I was referring to Nutczak specifically, not you or anyone else on this board.

Underdog, You probably focus on "cashing in" in whatever field you work for a living, don't you? If you're a house painter, you "cash in" on being a house painter, right? I "cashed in" on being a business owner in the transportation field for 26 years. I now make my career solely in the firearms industry...less money too, I might add. Is that OK?
 
Last edited:

rotty

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
217
Location
Minneapolis Minnesota
- snip-

Rotty, I believe you have me confused with Rob.


Underdog, You probably focus on "cashing in" in whatever field you work for a living, don't you? If you're a house painter, you "cash in" on being a house painter, right? I "cashed in" on being a business owner in the transportation field for 26 years. I now make my career solely in the firearms industry...less money too, I might add. Is that OK?

No sir, I am not confused. Rob has a LEO background which leads him to believe his " pro opinion " on giving up one's constitutional rights is a good thing.

I believe you sir are cashing in on your opinion as underdog stated.

Please remember, your opinions are just that - OPINION. As you are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine. It seems to me in my opinion you and your co host have inflated opinions of yourself and consider yourselves legends in your own minds.

As I stated in my previous post, your program made me vomit in my mouth.
 
Last edited:

Underdog

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
18
Location
, ,
Missed the point Mark

You bet I do Mark! (try to earn the most I can)

The difference between you and I is simple. I didn't self appointment myself as a "expert" or a representative of a group (gun owners) so I could get paid to speak, write, etc.

To be even more clear- I only find you funny because you profess to sacrifice so much for "us".
 

Mark Walters

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
11
Location
GA
I apologize

No sir, I am not confused. Rob has a LEO background which leads him to believe his " pro opinion " on giving up one's constitutional rights is a good thing.

I believe you sir are cashing in on your opinion as underdog stated.

Please remember, your opinions are just that - OPINION. As you are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine. It seems to me in my opinion you and your co host have inflated opinions of yourself and consider yourselves legends in your own minds.

As I stated in my previous post, your program made me vomit in my mouth.

When I said you had me confused it was because you state in your previous post that I had LEO Background/LEO Mindset...I do not have any LEO background therefore you had me confused with Rob.

You are an angry person. That's too bad. I hope if ever confronted by LE while armed that your obvious disdain for them is not as apparent as it is here. It could turn out very bad for you.

Underdog: So you're not an expert in your chosen field? You do not strive to be seen by your customers/peers, etc as an expert in what you do? See I think you "missed the mark"...I do not purport to be the expert...I use the radio program to bring the experts, like Rob and Nugent, and politicians, and other trainers, writers, etc to the listener. I can tell you this...When I ran my own business, you're damn right I was the expert and wanted every customer I had and peer that I competed with to know it.

You should listen to the show. It really is pro-gun and pro-WI Carry and every other grassroots organization and Pro-open carry and pro CCW, etc. We have some of the biggest names in the industry on the program every Sunday as well as gun friendly politicians, authors, etc. You might even like it.
 
Last edited:

SkipCoryell

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
93
Location
Hamilton, Michigan, USA
In defense of Mark and Rob

Good job over there in Wisconsin. I open carry sometimes here in MI and have never been harassed, though some of my friends have. I love the Open Carry Picnic events. Great food and guns!

Whatever you think about the radio show is obviously your choice. This is still America, right. But I have to tell you that some of your criticism of Mark Walters and Rob Pincus is not justified. I'm as pro-open carry as all of you, but if a police officer asks me for ID, I'll do as Rob suggested and give it to him, even if he's being a jerk about it. Then I'll follow up and take the appropriate actions to hold the officer accountable.

I think we already have enough tension between LEOs and OCers. We dont' need more. Rob made a great point, when he suggested we use all those legal dollars to advance the public relations aspect of our fight to restore RKBA. Before we can win back our rights, we first have to win back the hearts and minds of the electorate. Belligerence to LEOs is counter-productive from a PR standpoint. Many of these LEOs are taught that gun-carriers are a threat to their lives. When you're belligerent, you reinforce his belief. On the other hand, when you're polite and comply with his reasonable demands, then you can open a dialogue with him/her and you've made some in-roads.

That's my opinion, and as far as making a living out of the gun industry, that's largely a myth. Most of us do this for free. Unless, of course, you'd like to log on to www.skipcoryell.com and buy one of my books. Buy my books and you can call me all the names you want. :)

(Hey, I'm a proud capitalist, trying to make the American dream come true for me and my family! I don't apologize for that!)

God bless all the open carriers. They carry the torch of freedom in a hostile environment!

Skip Coryell

P.S. As far as giving up one right because a police officer asked us to... well, we give up our rights every day we live in this country. Everytime I visit WI and drive through IL I give up my rights. It's the cold, hard, lousy reality of the political situation.
 

rotty

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
217
Location
Minneapolis Minnesota
When I said you had me confused it was because you state in your previous post that I had LEO Background/LEO Mindset...I do not have any LEO background therefore you had me confused with Rob.

You are an angry person. That's too bad. I hope if ever confronted by LE while armed that your obvious disdain for them is not as apparent as it is here. It could turn out very bad for you.

Downright AMAZING that you can conclude I am an angry person. You are not only a self proclaimed firearms and 2nd amendment expert but a forensic psychologist too !

Listen up buddy and listen good.

Just because someone disagrees with you and your sidekick does not make them angry, or say they have in any way shape or form disrespect for men and women in uniform.

I have many close friends who put on a gun everyday under the color of law. As many if not more than carry a firearm for personal protection.

I did not get this right from you, by you, or with your help in ANY way shape or form so get yourself a ladder and climb down off that high horse you are on.

That being said why don't you do us all a favor and go talk to the 12 million people in 430 countries who give a flying **** what you have to say. They might kiss your ass there but I sure am not going to do it here.
 
Top