Armed America Radio Interview

SkipCoryell said:

P.S. As far as giving up one right because a police officer asked us to... well, we give up our rights every day we live in this country. Everytime I visit WI and drive through IL I give up my rights. It's the cold, hard, lousy reality of the political situation.

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I feel very sorry for you if this is your true opinion of " giving up one's rights ".

rotty said:

Downright AMAZING that you can conclude I am an angry person. You are not only a self proclaimed firearms and 2nd amendment expert but a forensic psychologist too !

Listen up buddy and listen good.

Just because someone disagrees with you and your sidekick does not make them angry, or say they have in any way shape or form disrespect for men and women in uniform.

I have many close friends who put on a gun everyday under the color of law. As many if not more than carry a firearm for personal protection.

I did not get this right from you, by you, or with your help in ANY way shape or form so get yourself a ladder and climb down off that high horse you are on.

That being said why don't you do us all a favor and go talk to the 12 million people in 430 countries who give a flying **** what you have to say. They might kiss your ass there but I sure am not going to do it here.

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I didn't have to conclude you are angry. Read your own posts. You just proved it with your rhetoric, tone and language. How do you talk to and treat the folks who actually disagree with you?...you and I agree on the issues...did you forget that?

Mark,

For some reason, people on this forum seem to think if you make money providing firearm training that you are lower than worms.

Not sure. Personally, if you can find someone to pay you to do something you enjoy, have at it!

All, please let's tone down the vitriol. We are ALL on the same side. Let's not forget what we are trying to do. We are ALL trying to get our rights recognized and uninfringed through any legal means.

While we don't always agree on tactics, I believe we all agree on the end game.

Mark Walters said:

I didn't have to conclude you are angry. Read your own posts. You just proved it with your rhetoric, tone and language. How do you talk to and treat the folks who actually disagree with you?...you and I agree on the issues...did you forget that?

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Part of the issue is the anonymity that internet posting offers. One cannot infer body language or tone of voice. I met Rotty this past weekend and even though he's a Vikings lover he's a good guy.

I would have no issue coming on your show again. Just let me know the time.

See you on the Radio

Thanks Paul! Well said. Gotta fly but make sure to tune in...WI listeners can go to www.armedamericanradio.com and click the "listen live" button at the top of the page for a site that feeds the program live.

Rotty, you can simply tune it to 1280 AM The Patriot, WWTC right there in Minneapolis at 7pm CT and ENJOY, my friend...we really do agree!

Mark

I am going to stop posting on the topic as apparently I am coming off as angry and I am just not an angry person whatsoever.

If I am coming off that way to other members that have been here .. I apologize.

Next topic.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Mark,

For some reason, people on this forum seem to think if you make money providing firearm training that you are lower than worms.

Not sure. Personally, if you can find someone to pay you to do something you enjoy, have at it!

All, please let's tone down the vitriol. We are ALL on the same side. Let's not forget what we are trying to do. We are ALL trying to get our rights recognized and uninfringed through any legal means.

While we don't always agree on tactics, I believe we all agree on the end game.

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People have heated and heartfelt discussions on the site all the time. Adamantly disagreeing and being actually angry with someone are two different things. And, you know what? Even if people are a little angry I think they have the right to be. I don't think my posts showed any "anger" but they were skimmed over and left without replys in favor of the posts that were "easier" to take issue with.

If you would take the time I'd very much appreciate an honest answer to the questions. In your opinion of course.

1. Do you feel the need to give up your ID everytime an LEO ASKS for it?
2. If the answer to number 1 is no, when do you feel you should not provide it?
3. If the answer to number 1 is yes, Do you enjoy living in East Berlin circa 1965?

Remember, if the LEO asks for it and you give it to him without so much as a "I don't consent" there will be no COURT and your rights will have been trampled on without any legal recourse. You just consented, same as if he asked to search your car and you consented.

The people that you were talking about on your show politely declined to show ID and/or remained silent. There was no reason at all for the situation to "escalate" simply for polite refusal to comply with unconstitutional probing by the LEO's.

So, after all that, why on earth should they have given up their 4th and 5th amendment rights?

Maybe you forget that without the illegally obtained ID's, the police would have no where to send the DC tickets to the two who politely declined. Sounds like avoiding self-incrimination to me.

911

As info, I will be playing the 911 audio on air Sunday 10-3-2010 and commenting.

Brass, Please email me at mark@armedamericanradio.org or anyone else who wants to for that matter.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark Walters said:

As info, I will be playing the 911 audio on air Sunday 10-3-2010 and commenting.

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Thanks! Have you also listened to the audio of the encounter? You will notice that we were all very civil and polite.

Mark Walters said:

As info, I will be playing the 911 audio on air Sunday 10-3-2010 and commenting.

Brass, Please email me at mark@armedamericanradio.org or anyone else who wants to for that matter.

Thanks,

Mark

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I would have prefered to discuss here but an email is inbound just the same.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Mark,

For some reason, people on this forum seem to think if you make money providing firearm training that you are lower than worms.

Not sure. Personally, if you can find someone to pay you to do something you enjoy, have at it!

All, please let's tone down the vitriol. We are ALL on the same side. Let's not forget what we are trying to do. We are ALL trying to get our rights recognized and uninfringed through any legal means.

While we don't always agree on tactics, I believe we all agree on the end game.

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Paul, you really hit it square here. There have been a few people on this forum that constantly bash training and trainers. At least one of them thinks that Hunter Safety Training is all that anyone would need. Huh? The sad thing is they influence a lot of the new people getting into open carry. I am all for training being voluntary but to me it is only common sense. The information learned in Hunter Safety Training will not teach you how to stay out of prison in a defensive gun use. It is disgusting the way Rob is being treated in this thread. He is an accomplished trainer who has earned the respect of many people, me included. I would really like to take some of his classes to expand my knowledge.

I do not believe one should freely waive one right to be able to exercise another.
And telling people over the airwaves just to waive their rights! Really, WTF?

As for complying with illegal demands from a police officer and then hoping top get it straightened out in court.
I liken your statement of waiving your rights freely to someone hitting their thumb with a hammer and then going to the hospital to get it fixed. Wouldn't it just be better to not hit your thumb with a hammer in the first place so a wrong wouldn't need to be fixed.

Then you ask what I am doing to forward our rights? I am out there carrying everyday and not freely waiving my rights to any police officer that asks. But instead you 2 are telling people to comply with illegal demands from the police. All you are doing is making the police expect for every citizen to happily waive their rights which makes it more difficult for people like me and most OCDO members who hold our rights in high regard and do not care for them to be trampled. SO Please stop!

Hey guys... Now that the thread is a bit cooler, I wanted to slip back in and respond to the idea that whether or not we are professionals in the firearms industry or not has anything to do with this.

Rotty (and possibly others),

Don't you think that I was aware that my opinions would be controversial at "Opencarry.org" ?? As you an see, I was a member here before the issue in Madison came up and before the show last week. I am very interested in the Open Carry issue. From a safety/tactical/defensive point (the only opinion that I actually consider my "professional" one), I don't think it is a good idea. I realize that Wisconsin doesn't allow the option of CC, so I think it becomes important to start thinking about how to OC as safely as possible. I advocate a holster with some type of retention and I advocate that the person carrying be VERY AWARE of how others perceive their actions while openly armed. Refusing to cooperate with the police says "trouble" to me. I know that people here disagree and I think that is fine. I'm not trying to change minds, really... My job is education. I am a teacher. I do the radio show (which doesn't pay me, by the way) to share my thoughts with a larger audience. Is there marketing value? absolutely. What is it called when someone who COULD benefit from saying what people WANT TO HEAR and he instead expresses his honest professional opinion knowing that some of the listeners may choose to NOT attend his training, buy his DVDs or watch his TV shows? Integrity. That's why I don't post under a code name and that's why I try to express my opinion and explain it professionally. If it is not appreciated here, I will refrain from future posts.

-RJP

Rob Pincus said:

Hey guys... Now that the thread is a bit cooler, I wanted to slip back in and respond to the idea that whether or not we are professionals in the firearms industry or not has anything to do with this.

Rotty (and possibly others),

Don't you think that I was aware that my opinions would be controversial at "Opencarry.org" ?? As you an see, I was a member here before the issue in Madison came up and before the show last week. I am very interested in the Open Carry issue. From a safety/tactical/defensive point (the only opinion that I actually consider my "professional" one), I don't think it is a good idea. I realize that Wisconsin doesn't allow the option of CC, so I think it becomes important to start thinking about how to OC as safely as possible. I advocate a holster with some type of retention and I advocate that the person carrying be VERY AWARE of how others perceive their actions while openly armed. Refusing to cooperate with the police says "trouble" to me. I know that people here disagree and I think that is fine. I'm not trying to change minds, really... My job is education. I am a teacher. I do the radio show (which doesn't pay me, by the way) to share my thoughts with a larger audience. Is there marketing value? absolutely. What is it called when someone who COULD benefit from saying what people WANT TO HEAR and he instead expresses his honest professional opinion knowing that some of the listeners may choose to NOT attend his training, buy his DVDs or watch his TV shows? Integrity. That's why I don't post under a code name and that's why I try to express my opinion and explain it professionally. If it is not appreciated here, I will refrain from future posts.

-RJP

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Rob,

I personally appreciate you posting here. I like hearing all points of view and while you and I disagree about challenging police, we probably generally agree with other things gun related.

I guess it comes back to the original question. When should we cooperate with the police? While others say that you should NEVER talk to police, I personally will talk up to the point where the conversation becomes non-consentual.

If a cop come up to my house and asks to search my house, should I allow it? Obviously if he demands it and forces his way in, I have no choice. Also, getting back to ID while OC. Let's say I OC and go out shopping. I go to 10 stores. I encounter 5 different LEO's, when do I stop cooperating? Should the 1st LEO of the day have stamp that they can put on my hand that I can show so that I am exempt from ID checks the rest of the day?

WI has its ID laws the way they do for a reason. I do not see the reason to give up part of my rights just because I was asked. If they want the ability to do it, they need to get the law changed.

I understand we don't want a confrontation to escalate into a shooting but I believe I have the common sense to see if something is going out of control.

Everyone is entitled to a personal opinion, and I am done bickering over the issue in this thread. I am not a listener (other than this one time) and personally do not plan on being one after hearing what I heard. Now if other people want to that's up to them and I respect those decisions.

I do respect what you do and I believe that you believe yourself 100%. It's important to stand up for what we believe in even if the opinions surrounding it are less than popular and the right to do so is what makes this country great.

Carry on with all that is you do and I wish you nothing but the best.

Rob, I also appreciate you posting here and I hope you will continue to do so. The one time I was confronted by the police was very early in the open carry movement. The officers demanded ID or we were "going downtown". I gave it to them while telling them this was an illegal demand. I later went down and spoke with the police chief and told him that I realized this was new to everyone and I was writing this one off to a learning experience but the next time I would refuse to ID myself and then take proper legal action. Since then, things have changed a great deal in the whole state with the exception of the Madison PD who have apparently decided to make a last stand. Your open carry concerns are valid and appreciated, however so far it is going pretty well. One guy had his gun taken from him by robbers while walking on the sidewalk. I don't know the details of how that happened but that has been the only incident I am aware of. There are small areas of the state where I would not open carry due to drug and gang activity. But then, I probably wouldn't go to those areas if was carrying concealed either.

I look forward to reading more of comments concerning open carry.

I'd personally appreciate an answer to my previous post or the email I was told to send but was never answered.......but that's just me.

Rotty

I'm sorry to hear about your refusal to listen to the show. In fact, you'll probably like to know that Nik Clark is joining me this Sunday to continue the discussion on air...I'm sure you'll be able to read about it here though afterwards. Too bad, because you're going to miss a great program.

As info, I've also spoken to Massad Ayoob and asked his professional opinion. He's a man whom I admire greatly and although Massad will be traveling during the broadcast, he is sending me a detailed email and I'll be reading his response to listeners on air.

Brass, sorry for the delay...work gets in the way sometimes. I'll get to some emails this weekend. Thanks for your patience.

Mark

Thanks, Rotty and others. I always welcome reasoned discussion and like to read here if only to learn more about the actual experiences of OC'ers.

***

Brass, I apologize, I honestly thought that all of your questions were rhetorical. If you're wanting answers to your 1, 2, 3 list:
1. Yes.
2. N/A
3. I know a lot of people who actually lived in East Germany, in and near Berlin, before the wall came down, (including one my wives and her family). I've spent a fair amount of time there and studied/discussed the era to which you refer. I believe that he problem wasn't the state/police knowing who you were, it was what they actually had laws against (free speech, etc). So, while your question is obviously silly, you should re-read it and remember that we are a LONG way off from "East Berlin circa 1965".

*****

On the plane today, I thought more about the issue of Potential Escalation that is bothering some of you. I think a big part of my concern is that Police Officers are constantly bombarded with training in regard to "Officer Safety". They get very little training in the latest legal issues.
The fundamental obligation to respect an individual's rights is always trumped by an interest in self preservation (by common sense and by doctrine). When Martin Luther King and Ghandi passively resisted in protest of civil rights violations, they weren't strapping Glocks. That changes the nature of the game pretty significantly and escalates the situation, if you ask me.
If you want to parade around the town square in plaid shorts and pink slippers until the police ask for your ID and then refuse, I'll back your legal issue AND respect the act. BUT, when you don't cooperate with the police when they are concerned about you being armed and possibly dangerous, I think you are being foolish.

-RJP

Rob Pincus said:

when you don't cooperate with the police when they are concerned about you being armed and possibly dangerous, I think you are being foolish.

-RJP

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OK...

Then, in your opinion, what should we have done?

1. LEO ASKS for ID. Volunteer it.
2. LEO ASKS for ID, refuse, LEO DEMANDS, give it under duress.
3. LEO ASKS for ID, refuse, LEO DEMANDS, refuse, LEO arrests and seizes ID.
4. LEO ASKS for ID, refuse, LEO DEMANDS, refuse, LEO arrests, you are sterile carrying so LEO must identify you using independent means.

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that unless I at least get to # 2, I have no legal case. As it proceeds higher in number, the more rights are violated.