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Thread: Harrassed by 4 sheriffs in STARBUCKS!

  1. #1
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Harrassed by 4 sheriffs in STARBUCKS!

    So I went to Starbucks in Spanaway to grab a coffee at lunch today and there was a sheriff there. While I stood in line to place my order the S asked if that was a gun, which I said yes, and then he asked to see my ID. I asked why and he said "because I don't know you and you have a gun". I told him he would need RAS to see my ID and he insisted. I asked if I was being detained. He said no. I said this conversation is over. Then he went out to his car to call for backup. I sat down after getting my coffee and started my voice recorder. Three other S's come in and start harrassing me as well. Asked me to go outside so as not to make a scene and I refused. I just sat right where I was. I asked why they needed to see my ID and they said "because we don't know who you are". I said my name is Thomas Brewster now you know who I am. I even compared them asking for my ID to Nazi Germany (let me see your papers now). That still didn't deter them.So they bullied me for at least five minutes before I gave them my ID. The whole time they were saying that I wasn't being detained and I said that they didn't have the right to ID me then. I'm not sure how I would be free to go when I'm surrounded by four cops and they have my ID. It's not like I could leave without it. So now I'm not sure where to start to get some things changed here. I would appreciate some citations of codes for the ID issue. Any help would be appreciated. I can email the recording to whoever wants to hear it.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Tom it is good you stood up for your rights, but I strongly suggest before others engage into this or any other activity, one needs to know, I mean actually read the material for yourself instead of taking someones word for it.

    Tom this is one of the better questions asked as of late.
    Last edited by BigDave; 09-28-2010 at 08:07 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    I'd be interested in hearing the recording, just out of curiosity. Definitely sounds like it was crossing the line. I would file a complaint with the department and the county. Pierce County, right? I am sure the superiors at PCSO know that their deputies should not be treating people in such manner.

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    Regular Member SnarlyWino's Avatar
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    Good for you Thomas! I do not have any advice to offer, but I will be following this thread diligently as I am curious as to how this plays out. I would love to hear the recording as well.
    Keep Calm and Carry On,

    Snarly

    Pro Deo, Pro Familia, Pro Patria

  5. #5
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I'd be interested in hearing the recording, just out of curiosity. Definitely sounds like it was crossing the line. I would file a complaint with the department and the county. Pierce County, right? I am sure the superiors at PCSO know that their deputies should not be treating people in such manner.
    PM me your email and I will send.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    sorry Tom...

    you sure started off RIGHT!
    it was nice to tell your name, but you DIDNT NEED to.
    i would have only said TOM...
    they knew you were right,, kept saying "you were not being detained".
    you were always free to go,, or stay,, and ignore them.
    they just brow beat you in to submission.
    once you gave them your papers, they had you trapped!
    you still could leave, without your ID.
    you could have "demanded" the return of your papers, but they would take their sweet time.
    Next time,,, just ignore them!!!!

    there is nothing really that you can do about this now, they didnt violate your rights.
    it was always a consensual encounter, and you gave up your 4th A right, voluntarily.
    something you and WE can all learn from..
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 09-28-2010 at 08:23 PM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  7. #7
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I agree their argument wanting ID because of not knowing who you are! is poor to say the least.
    This leads me to believe they know they had no legal standing so it was a request only and your right to refuse.
    You offered your name, which was good move on your part.

    As to offering ID to LE, I will go on record and say at this point and time I see no issue of supplying my ID when requested by law enforcement as I have had better background searches then they can conduct with out issue. Except when I am in a situation as yours. He was a customer, not on a call from what I gather and took it upon himself to make an issue.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    you sure started off RIGHT!
    it was nice to tell your name, but you DIDNT NEED to.
    i would have only said TOM...
    they new you were right,, kept saying "you were not being detained".
    you were always free to go,, or stay,, and ignore them.
    they just brow beat you in to submission.
    once you gave them your papers, they had you trapped!
    you still could leave, without your ID.
    you could have "demanded" the return of your papers, but they would take their sweet time.
    Next time,,, just ignore them!!!!

    there is nothing really that you can do about this now,,
    it was always a consensual encounter, and you gave up your 4th A right,
    something you and WE can all learn from..
    Tom,

    You did an excellent job, 1245A Defender gives some good advice above. I hope you post the audio, it is a great training tool to all of us that OC. The officers use many different techniques to get you to give up your rights.

    A follow up with the Sheriff would be good. I just sent them a copy of the letter that Trigger Dr has supplied in the past.
    Live Free or Die!

  9. #9
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Tom,

    You did an excellent job, 1245A Defender gives some good advice above. I hope you post the audio, it is a great training tool to all of us that OC. The officers use many different techniques to get you to give up your rights.

    A follow up with the Sheriff would be good. I just sent them a copy of the letter that Trigger Dr has supplied in the past.
    I'll have to sync my phone to the computer at home to get the audio on here so it might be a while. I don't do that very often and I almost never use the computer at home for anything. I mostly just use my phone.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    situations like this are EXACTLY the reason I "practiced" a week or so ago and recieved hell from every corner of this forum about it...

    "sorry officer I do not answer any questions without my lawyer present..."
    Last edited by devildoc5; 09-28-2010 at 08:46 PM.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    situations like this are EXACTLY the reason I "practiced" a week or so ago and recieved hell from every corner of this forum about it...

    "sorry officer I do not answer any questions without my lawyer present..."
    I have a feeling they didn't want him to answer questions, they just wanted to yell at him until he did what they wanted. I would have called 911 and said "There's 4 guys who say they're Sheriffs here yelling at me. They say I'm not being detained, but they won't let me leave. Help!"

    Of course, that's assuming they wouldn't grab and smash his phone if he tried to call anyone. He's lucky they didn't know he was recording them.
    Last edited by antispam540; 09-28-2010 at 08:48 PM.

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    TomBrewster421,

    where would the OPE officers have been if you were NOT CARRYING YOUR ID ON YOUR PERSON?

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    except "can i see your ID?" IS a question.....
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    except "can i see your ID?" IS a question.....
    I don't think they stopped at asking. I think they went on to "insisting", but stopped short of "forcing" because of the public scene.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    The audio...

    CLICK HERE for the audio. (I have Tom's permission)
    Live Free or Die!

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    A person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave, and as long as the person to whom questions are put remains free to disregard the questions and walk away, there has been no intrusion upon that person's liberty or privacy as would require some particularized and objective justification.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZS.html

    If you are surrounded by 4 uniformed deputies who have demanded your indentification, no reasonable person would feel free to disregard the questions and walk away. You were therefore "seized within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment" without justification. It doesn't matter if they actually searched you (beyond running the information from your ID); it was still just as much a violation as if they had strip-searched you and confiscated your firearm.
    Last edited by KBCraig; 09-28-2010 at 09:02 PM.

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Tom, you were right to ask if your were being detained. Once the officer said no, you were right in saying "this conversation is over." However, you didn't end the conversation. It sounds like you continued it. You also said you compared the question for ID to Nazi Germany. Probably not the best way out of a police harassment. As much as we ALL want to talk back to an officer demanding something that is not theirs, it is always best to just NOT have a conversation with a police officer who has verbally stated they are not detaining you. Once you gave up your name, you entered into voluntary detention (by that I mean you gave them permission to keep asking). Then you gave up your ID. I think we all talk a nice big talk here about what we SHOULD do, but when it comes down to it, it is very intimidating talking to a police officer when you are carrying. I think you handled it fine for a first time (I assume first time). Thank you for sharing this with us. It helps us understand more about police encounters. I hope these comments from the forum help you prepare for another encounter. Again, if you're not being detained... don't talk.

    Joe~

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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    SNIP Three other S's come in and start harrassing me as well. Asked me to go outside so as not to make a scene and I refused. I just sat right where I was. I asked why they needed to see my ID and they said "because we don't know who you are". I said my name is Thomas Brewster now you know who I am. I even compared them asking for my ID to Nazi Germany (let me see your papers now). That still didn't deter them.So they bullied me for at least five minutes before I gave them my ID. The whole time they were saying that I wasn't being detained and I said that they didn't have the right to ID me then. I'm not sure how I would be free to go when I'm surrounded by four cops and they have my ID. It's not like I could leave without it. So now I'm not sure where to start to get some things changed here. I would appreciate some citations of codes for the ID issue. Any help would be appreciated. I can email the recording to whoever wants to hear it.
    I haven't listened to your recording. Just based on the written report, you were detained. They were lying. Even without the ID in the cops hands, you were detained.

    Surrounded by four cops? Bullied?

    Here are some quotes from US vs Mendenhall:

    We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. (bold emphasis by Citizen)

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZO.html

    This encounter would be fun to make a formal written complain about. Lots of angles to hammer.

    First contradiction. The first cop felt the need to call for help for a consensual encounter? Uh, huh. Suuuuuure he did. He was counting on the "persuasiveness" of more cops.

    Next contradiction. The non-consensual nature of the encounter was established very early, when the OCer said "This conversation is over." Plainly he did not consent. He had just refused the cops ID demand/request, too. No doubt about it, this was not a consensual encounter. Any extension by the cops was necessarily non-consensual, meaning a detention in this case. What is the cop gonna say? That by getting some of his buddies to crowd around that suddenly the OCer would change his refused consent?

    By the way, there are court cases about the voluntariness of consent. I've never kept links to them; but Google Scholar would probably turn up something. Even if someone could argue that the OCer "consented" to the second half of the encounter, I'm betting the "consent" would not hold up to any standard of voluntariness, thus the alleged "consent" would not be valid.

    Once the detention is established, in this case the non-consensual nature of the encounter, lots of things change.

    There is no law authorizing an ID document demand in the OCer's state as far as I know. So, you got them on making an extra-legal demand; just double-check the statutes to make sure. The steady pressuring makes it a demand from a practical, if not legal, stand point. And, maybe a legal standpoint at that.

    Also, the cop said carrying a gun was his RAS. Use that. Tough for him if he told you the wrong RAS or lied to you about it. It was his RAS at inception. Hammer it home as "no RAS."

    Probably more angles here if we think about it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-28-2010 at 09:09 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    I just listened to the audio. The officer said "We are in it now, we are committed. We just need to see your ID so we can run it, then we leave you alone."

    Definitely detention by harassment. I would have said, "You just told me you are not detaining me. So unless you are detaining me, I am going to ignore the questioning."

    Bunch of BS they are trying to play it off to be the good guy. They are just trying to harass him and got caught off guard that they encountered an educated citizen.

    I also noticed the nazi comment was AFTER the encounter, so it probably didn't spur on the harassment like I thought previously.

    Joe~

    P.S. Call the Sheriff and complain
    Last edited by joejoejoe; 09-28-2010 at 09:11 PM.

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    Not even half way through that recording and I find it unbelievable. You were detained. It's right there in the recording. They said so.

    And they are in complete denial, and they even admit it!

    And of course they have to play the Lakewood card.

    I don't know what to say.
    Last edited by deanf; 09-28-2010 at 09:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    I just listened to the audio. The officer said "We are in it now, we are committed. We just need to see your ID so we can run it, then we leave you alone."
    Hahahahahahaha! Juicy. Sweet. Yesssssss. Thank you for that confession, copper!!

    My, oh, my, but these cops were helpful at tying the noose around their neck, weren't they.

    You know, a lawsuit might not be out of the question here.

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    Guess where we're meeting for coffee next...

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    Maybe you should call the ACLU. Seriously. They've litigated for years to defend people who have been illegally detained or ID'd. They're experts.

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    Regular Member WinchesterModel12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    Guess where we're meeting for coffee next...
    my thoughts exactly.
    WHEN AND WHERE?
    If guns kill people......then all of mine are defective........ UNCLE TED

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Maybe you should call the ACLU. Seriously. They've litigated for years to defend people who have been illegally detained or ID'd. They're experts.
    Yeah, but you can throw that straight out the window if it involves the second amendment in addition to the fourth.

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