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Thread: Victory for OC in Manhattan Beach

  1. #1
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Victory for OC in Manhattan Beach

    OC RESTORED at MB Hometown Fair.

    And in other news, the MB PD's finest show their true colors with this press release which no one but gun supporters and a couple journalists who are writing pro-OC stories received...

    http://www.southbayopencarry.org/wp-...ss-Release.doc

    Related summary story: http://www.examiner.com/la-in-los-an...to-back-of-bus

    PRESS RELEASE
    Manhattan Beach Police Department
    420 15th Street Manhattan Beach, CA 90266 (310) 802-5140


    For Immediate Release

    Subject: Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair
    Date: 28 September 2010
    Contact: Randy Leaf, Captain
    Phone: 310.802.5140
    FAX: N/A



    From the Office of the Chief of Police:

    The 38th Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair will be held the weekend of October 2nd-3rd. This Fair embodies what Manhattan Beach is all about: fun for all ages, great food, beautiful arts & crafts, music, free entertainment and games for kids of all ages…a true Manhattan Beach tradition! What the Fair is not about is guns.

    A few months ago, the Manhattan Beach Police Department was contacted by a gun activist group calling themselves the South Bay Open Carry (SBOC). They expressed their intent to attend the Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair, armed with openly displayed unloaded firearms, to express their 2nd amendment right to “bear arms”. SBOC was informed that they would need to speak to the Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair Board, which is a private entity, that controls the Fair and has rules in place for the safety of Fair goers. In the past, these rules included the prohibition of dogs, skateboards, rollerblades and other things that everyone has cooperated with for 37 years.

    The Hometown Fair Board met and decided this year to ban weapons from the Fair. The Fair Board felt that the Fair is a safe, family oriented event. It is believed that many in the community do not like guns, nor desire to have their children exposed to guns, except for their local police force, which undergoes hundreds of hours of training on the discretionary use of their guns, especially where people are present. This decision was vehemently opposed by SBOC.

    Over the past few weeks, SBOC has threatened lawsuit against the Hometown Fair Board, the City of Manhattan Beach, the Police Department, and American Martyrs School. The California Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995 prohibits any firearms being brought within 1000’ of elementary or secondary school grounds. Much of the Fair falls within 1000’ of American Martyrs School and Church. A part of the Fair also falls within 1000’ of Grandview Elementary School. SBOC contests that American Martyrs Church and O’Donnell Hall are not a part of American Martyrs School, however, the school uses both the Church and O’Donnell Hall as part of their instruction, including worship.

    Last evening, the Hometown Fair Board informed me they are not willing to risk a lawsuit (having been threatened as individuals by SBOC) and have asked us not to make any arrests for firearms being brought into the Fair in violation of their “no weapons” rule. They also informed me that they are asking SBOC to respect the reasonable rules that have been put into place for the safety of the Fair and that in the spirit of cooperation and the number of young families that will be present, to please leave their firearms at home.

    The Hometown Fair has been free of firearms and other weapons for 37 years and is arguably one of the safest Fairs in the country. The Fair will have thousands of children present over the weekend and many families do not want their children exposed to firearms. Many Open Carry activists carry ammunition close by and can go from unloaded to loaded within seconds. Many people are naturally fearful of firearms and nobody wants a shooting to erupt, especially in a densely populated area with children.

    The Police Department respects SBOC’s belief in their 2nd amendment rights to bear arms, but feels the Hometown Fair is not the proper place to exhibit that belief based on the feelings of the Hometown Fair Board and the Community. The Police Department also believes the law supports that any private property owner (including those who are granted control of public land for temporary events) could forbid firearms, much as many businesses and venues do currently (swap meets, sport venues, malls, restaurants, coffee shops, etc). However, the Hometown Fair Board is made up of long time residents and business owners who did not volunteer their time only to be burdened with constant email attacks by SBOC members and the fear of a lawsuit, which are time consuming and expensive.

    Thus in the interest of the spirit of the Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair, and knowing that the police are close by to keep the Fair safe, SBOC will not be arrested if they choose to ignore the Hometown Fair Board’s polite request and enter the Fair while armed, as long as they do not violate the 1000’ boundary around American Martyrs School/Church and Grandview Elementary School). It is hoped that SBOC activists will refrain from consuming alcoholic beverages while armed, or talking to children about their firearms without the children’s parents’ consent.

    SBOC has been informed of those areas that are within 1000’ of American Martyrs School and Church, as well as the 1000’ feet around Grandview Elementary School. A map is available at the Police Department website, so it will be assumed that all Open Carry activists attending the Fair while armed will be aware of those boundaries, which will be strictly enforced.

    One of the purposes of this Press Release is to inform Fair goers that they might see plain clothes individuals who may be openly displaying firearms. Please do not hesitate to notify a police officer or security guard at the Fair of any concerns, and if needed, the person(s) will be checked and the unloaded status of their firearm confirmed.

    We regret any discomfort brought about by these activists, but trust that the Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair will still be a wonderful event for all to enjoy in a safe, friendly, fun environment.

    If you have any questions, please contact Lieutenant Andy Harrod or Captain Randy Leaf at (310) 802-5140
    Last edited by hgreen; 09-28-2010 at 11:46 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Good news. Imagine that...fear of lawsuits has a way of keeping people honest. Imagine what that could do if elected representatives and police fell into the same category.

  3. #3
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    "Those poor fair volunteers who are being threatened by law suits...'

    This from the police chief who claims to be impartial...

    What about the "poor citizens who's civil rights are being threatened"?

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    Fear of a law suit? No, fear of losing a law suit and qualified immunity!

    Hey all,

    The tone of this press release gives me the IMPRESSION that the DA and/or County Counsel educated these people on the Penal Code and case law. I am opining that the author was still upset that his "feelings" about gun laws did not comply with 42 USC section 1983, and "well established" civil rights case law.

    He tried using the "children" as an excuse too many times.

    Chalk this up to me having a GUT FEELING!

    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 09-29-2010 at 12:06 AM. Reason: Added "...about gun laws..."

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Exactly. Keeping people honest with lawsuits because thats the only way they remain honest...they would (and tried) violate our civil liberties and they got called on it. Nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hey all,

    The tone of this press release gives me the IMPRESSION that the DA and/or County Counsel educated these people on the Penal Code and case law. I am opining that the author was still upset that his "feelings" about gun laws did not comply with 42 USC section 1983, and "well established" civil rights case law.

    He tried using the "children" as an excuse too many times.

    Chalk this up to me having a GUT FEELING!

    markm
    I got this same feeling...Talk about a backhanded comment. The whole release drips with distain for UOC.

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    " A map is available at the Police Department website,"

    As of approx. 8 pm Sept 28th, there is NO link to said map on said website.

  8. #8
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iopencarry View Post
    " A map is available at the Police Department website,"

    As of approx. 8 pm Sept 28th, there is NO link to said map on said website.
    Welcome to the lies of MBPD.

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iopencarry View Post
    " A map is available at the Police Department website,"

    As of approx. 8 pm Sept 28th, there is NO link to said map on said website.
    Ha! They're never going to do that. They'd be setting themselves up for failure if it was brought into court after a false arrest. Additionally one could ask why this fair, why this place? Why isn't the PD willing to map the entire city?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    It's more amusing to read the press release by substituting "cross necklace" with all instances of "gun."

    I'm surprised that the threat of a lawsuit has convinced the fair organizers to give way, but I am also pleased that they decided to go this route. The courts can sometimes work their magic even before getting there.

    ETA: I think we should establish a rule where if a letter/memo/whatever mentions children more than three times when the subject is nothing about children, that the memo can be declared as a lame emotional plea. I also love how the fair initiated a "weapons ban" and not a "selective weapons ban" (since police officers and CCW license holders wouldn't be challenged), I also like how the fair has been free from firearms and other weapons for 37 years. That's not even remotely true. Police have been there I'm sure. CCW holders have carried there I'm sure. It's possible that lately somebody has even LUCC.
    Last edited by bigtoe416; 09-29-2010 at 01:24 AM.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    I would highly suggest applications for a 12050 LTC be submitted to your local jurisdictions. Denial letters are soon going to be valuable get out of jail cards and an avenue for forced issuance.

    And Sacramento is NOW issuing LTCs for a good cause of 'self defense' and CGF's Sykes case is not even completed yet.

    As for this 'Victory', as right as it is, more reinforcements were just inspired to joint the 1934 fight next year. This in you face tactic works great when they can't take the tactic away. Ca. and Fed. jurisprudence is not their yet and it can not come soon enough for me.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    PRESS RELEASE
    Manhattan Beach Police Department
    420 15th Street Manhattan Beach, CA 90266 (310) 802-5140


    For Immediate Release

    Subject: Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair
    Date: 28 September 2010
    Contact: Randy Leaf, Captain
    Phone: 310.802.5140
    FAX: N/A



    From the Office of the Chief of Police:

    The 38th Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair will be held the weekend of October 2nd-3rd. This Fair embodies what Manhattan Beach is all about: fun for all ages, great food, beautiful arts & crafts, music, free entertainment and games for kids of all ages…a true Manhattan Beach tradition! What the Fair is not about is guns.

    A few months ago, the Manhattan Beach Police Department was contacted by a gun activist group calling themselves the South Bay Open Carry (SBOC). They expressed their intent to attend the Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair, armed with openly displayed unloaded firearms, to express their 2nd amendment right to “bear arms”. SBOC was informed that they would need to speak to the Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair Board, which is a private entity, that controls the Fair and has rules in place for the safety of Fair goers. In the past, these rules included the prohibition of dogs, skateboards, rollerblades and other things that everyone has cooperated with for 37 years.

    So, in nearly four decades, there has never been an incident where attendees have not complied with the prohibitions on bringing dogs, skateboards, or rollerblades and faced a trespass or other citable offence? Right. Would anyone care to PRA the police logs for any incidents involving any prohibited items for just last years fair?

    The Hometown Fair Board met and decided this year to ban weapons from the Fair. The Fair Board felt that the Fair is a safe, family oriented event. It is believed that many in the community do not like guns, nor desire to have their children 1 exposed to guns, except for their local police force, which undergoes hundreds of hours of training on the discretionary use of their guns, especially where people are present. This decision was vehemently opposed by SBOC.

    The fair board only decided to ban weapons for the express purpose of silencing SBOC. They would not even allow an informational booth. They specifically targeted a group with views that they did not like and forced them from the public square. Just like it is not acceptable to ban someone on the basis that they have a different skin color, or wear a star of David, or carry a Bible or are married to a person that is a different race or of the same gender, it is not acceptable to prohibit someone who has a right to self defense and wishes to practice this in the only lawful means at their disposal.

    I think its pretty humorous that the Chief thinks that the people that dont like guns think that police should have them too... What he fails to acknowledge is that these same people would like to strip him of his armament if they thought he couldnt do anything about it. The comment about training is a red herring- studies have concluded that police are less likely to hit what they are aiming at than gun owners and more likely use their firearms in situations where lethal force was not justified.


    Over the past few weeks, SBOC has threatened lawsuit against the Hometown Fair Board, the City of Manhattan Beach, the Police Department, and American Martyrs School. The California Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995 prohibits any firearms being brought within 1000’ of elementary or secondary school grounds. Much of the Fair falls within 1000’ of American Martyrs School and Church. A part of the Fair also falls within 1000’ of Grandview Elementary School. SBOC contests that American Martyrs Church and O’Donnell Hall are not a part of American Martyrs School, however, the school uses both the Church and O’Donnell Hall as part of their instruction, including worship.

    Last evening, the Hometown Fair Board informed me they are not willing to risk a lawsuit (having been threatened as individuals by SBOC) and have asked us not to make any arrests for firearms being brought into the Fair in violation of their “no weapons” rule. They also informed me that they are asking SBOC to respect the reasonable rules that have been put into place for the safety of the Fair and that in the spirit of cooperation and the number of young families that will be present, to please leave their firearms at home.

    The Hometown Fair has been free of firearms and other weapons for 37 years and is arguably one of the safest Fairs in the country. The Fair will have thousands of children 2 present over the weekend and many families do not want their children 3 exposed to firearms. Many Open Carry activists carry ammunition close by and can go from unloaded to loaded within seconds. Many people are naturally fearful of firearms and nobody wants a shooting to erupt, especially in a densely populated area with children4.

    The Chief has no way to substantiate this. It is impossible for him to know that the fair has EVER been weapons free- In fact, I believe a reasonable person could assume that many attendees have been armed with knives, pepperspray, stun guns, and concealed LOADED firearms (both with and without a license).

    The Police Department respects SBOC’s belief in their 2nd amendment rights to bear arms, but feels the Hometown Fair is not the proper place to exhibit that belief based on the feelings of the Hometown Fair Board and the Community. The Police Department also believes the law supports that any private property owner (including those who are granted control of public land for temporary events) could forbid firearms, much as many businesses and venues do currently (swap meets, sport venues, malls, restaurants, coffee shops, etc). However, the Hometown Fair Board is made up of long time residents and business owners who did not volunteer their time only to be burdened with constant email attacks by SBOC members and the fear of a lawsuit, which are time consuming and expensive.

    The second amendment is the right to keep and bear arms all the time, not just in police approved venues and circumstances. If the Chief really does respect the belief in the RTKABA and an armed citizenry, I presume that he regularly and freely issues licenses to carry concealed to those who want one. No? I rest my case.

    Thus in the interest of the spirit of the Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair, and knowing that the police are close by to keep the Fair safe, SBOC will not be arrested if they choose to ignore the Hometown Fair Board’s polite request and enter the Fair while armed, as long as they do not violate the 1000’ boundary around American Martyrs School/Church and Grandview Elementary School). It is hoped that SBOC activists will refrain from consuming alcoholic beverages while armed, or talking to children 5 about their firearms without the children’s 6 parents’ consent.

    The author invoked "children" six times as an appropriate reason why guns should not be present at this event intended for young families to congregate in safety and harmony. Apparently, they are in the same camp as those who mistake a firearm as a phallus or other gender enhancement. What I believe will uniquely and completely defeat this false arguement, that the presence of firearms around children is 'bad'- is for those open carriers to enjoy the festivities with their children in tow, just like every other young family out there. This ban on weapons "for the children" arguement should be buried and dead... perhaps OC Dads can have some T-shirts made up with the slogan "It's for my children!"

    SBOC has been informed of those areas that are within 1000’ of American Martyrs School and Church, as well as the 1000’ feet around Grandview Elementary School. A map is available at the Police Department website, so it will be assumed that all Open Carry activists attending the Fair while armed will be aware of those boundaries, which will be strictly enforced.

    One of the purposes of this Press Release is to inform Fair goers that they might see plain clothes individuals who may be openly displaying firearms. Please do not hesitate to notify a police officer or security guard at the Fair of any concerns, and if needed, the person(s) will be checked and the unloaded status of their firearm confirmed.

    We regret any discomfort brought about by these activists, but trust that the Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair will still be a wonderful event for all to enjoy in a safe, friendly, fun environment.

    Yeah, people didn't like 'coloreds' sitting at the lunch counter in the south either. Bigotry lives here- it was once for Blacks- now its against Stainless or Blued.

    If you have any questions, please contact Lieutenant Andy Harrod or Captain Randy Leaf at (310) 802-5140
    Well it appears in this three-way staring contest, the fair organizers blinked first. I think this is largely due to the fact that they have the most to lose. Their decision was certainly related to the risk of not turning a profit. The response from the CLEO here is not surprising- I think its intended to placate the largest portion of his constituency- and SBOC is a burr in his saddle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Josey Wales View Post
    I got this same feeling...Talk about a backhanded comment. The whole release drips with distain for UOC.
    No, the distain is not for UOC or even for guns, it is distain for civil rights. You can wrap it with any covering you like, but ultimately, the person responsible for penning that press release is mortified that they cannot force anyone to cease legal activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolusername2007 View Post
    Exactly. Keeping people honest with lawsuits because thats the only way they remain honest...they would (and tried) violate our civil liberties and they got called on it. Nice.
    I think the only motivating factor in play for the fair organization backing down was money. By making this rule of no weapons at their privately run public event in response to SBOC's intent to carry, they made it a no win scenario; either reneg and allow SBOC to participate at the percieved risk that attendance would be influenced or they attempt to ban weapons in a public place where entry is not controlled, draw more media attention and the prospect of losing their profit in their money making enterprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    The tone of this press release gives me the IMPRESSION that the DA and/or County Counsel educated these people on the Penal Code and case law.
    Im sure if the fair organizers had secured counsel, they too would have drawn the same conclusions.
    Last edited by ConditionThree; 09-29-2010 at 01:54 AM.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I would highly suggest applications for a 12050 LTC be submitted to your local jurisdictions. Denial letters are soon going to be valuable get out of jail cards and an avenue for forced issuance.

    And Sacramento is NOW issuing LTCs for a good cause of 'self defense' and CGF's Sykes case is not even completed yet.

    As for this 'Victory', as right as it is, more reinforcements were just inspired to joint the 1934 fight next year. This in you face tactic works great when they can't take the tactic away. Ca. and Fed. jurisprudence is not their yet and it can not come soon enough for me.
    I would suggest waiting till after Nov 1st as that is when we should have a summary judgement in the Peruta case. I'm not sure as to what info. he has released so I will ask him to comment on this.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    We regret any discomfort brought about by these activists, but trust that the Manhattan Beach Old Hometown Fair will still be a wonderful event for all to enjoy in a safe, friendly, fun environment.

    I especially liked this part. What a Richard Cranium.
    Last edited by Gundude; 09-29-2010 at 02:29 AM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Green thank you. You are doing great. I would chalk that up to a win. Keep up the good work.

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    "The Police Department also believes the law supports that any private property owner (including those who are granted control of public land for temporary events) could forbid firearms, much as many businesses and venues do currently (swap meets, sport venues, malls, restaurants, coffee shops, etc). "

    Is it just me or they actually started a sentence with the words "the PD also believes" rather than "the law states that..." when making a point.

    Hhmmm.

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    So, anybody planning to grace the fair with their presence?

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanburbridge View Post
    I would chalk that up to a win.
    I would reserve judgement on that until it could be determined whether or not this confrontation results in another legislative response.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    I would reserve judgement on that until it could be determined whether or not this confrontation results in another legislative response.
    So now if any liberal cook brings up another AB1934 you're going to try and point fingers at SBOC and the MB Fair now?

    This is just great.

    Don't stand up and fight for your rights kids, it might make the oppressors angry and try to take more of your rights away, just sit tight and let them put that screw in your ass a little deeper.

    Sorry, I'm not going to let these crooks slide every time they want to violate someones civil rights. By taking the actions SBOC has been in the LA area we have grown an enormous support base of people who previously had never heard of OC or AB1934 and are now freedom fighters ready to take on these types of battles.

    If you want to stay at home polishing your gun and not risk "future ab1934s", fine. We are going to go out and fight TODAY to preserve our freedoms.

  20. #20
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    Is the part about "not talking to children about guns" even legal ?

    Is there any law in CA penal code that prohibits an adult, or even a minor, from talking to a minor about lawful subjects ?
    Has any of the statements the chief made had any basis in LAW? No.

    Since when did police departments "feel" things? They are supposed to be unbiased enforcers of the law, whatever the law is, not interpreters or creators of law.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    copy paste from the Daily Breeze.....

    "We plan on still going to the fair," Green said. "That right is given to us by the Constitution."

    I hope that is a misquote.
    Last edited by Gundude; 09-29-2010 at 02:44 PM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  22. #22
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundude View Post
    copy paste from the examiner.....

    "We plan on still going to the fair," Green said. "That right is given to us by the Constitution."

    I hope that is a misquote.
    Two completely different sentences from different paragraphs pasted together by reporters.

    Welcome to the mainstream media folks.

  23. #23
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    So now if any liberal cook brings up another AB1934 you're going to try and point fingers at SBOC and the MB Fair now?

    This is just great.

    Don't stand up and fight for your rights kids, it might make the oppressors angry and try to take more of your rights away, just sit tight and let them put that screw in your ass a little deeper.

    Sorry, I'm not going to let these crooks slide every time they want to violate someones civil rights. By taking the actions SBOC has been in the LA area we have grown an enormous support base of people who previously had never heard of OC or AB1934 and are now freedom fighters ready to take on these types of battles.

    If you want to stay at home polishing your gun and not risk "future ab1934s", fine. We are going to go out and fight TODAY to preserve our freedoms.
    I could not agree more. You ARE the man. Instead of bashing on someone elses tactics like some here do. They should continue to use their own approach.

    I WILL be there.

    If a bill comes about because of this I hope you would be VERY proud. You are doing a great job. I only hope the bill is named after you. The bill will NOT hold water and would prove how determined the antis are to strip our rights.

    WHEN nothing bad happens will the media cover this? NO! Will you get an apology? NO! Have you done the RIGHT thing HELL YES.

    See ya there!
    Last edited by ryanburbridge; 09-29-2010 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Spelling I suck at it! Sorry.

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    Right-on Bro!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanburbridge View Post
    I could not agree more. You ARE the man. Instead of bashing on someone elses tactics like some here do. They should continue to use their own approach.

    I WILL be there.

    If a bill comes about because of this I hope you would be VERY proud. You are doing a great job. I only hope the bill is named after you. The bill will NOT hold water and would prove how determined the antis are to strip our rights.

    WHEN nothing bad happens will the media cover this? NO! Will you get an apology? NO! Have you done the RIGHT thing HELL YES.

    See ya there!
    Hey Ryanburbridge,

    Your opinion is right-on!

    Great job hgreen. The grassroots gets it done while the intelectuals who act like RINOs get hammered.

    Playing nice and capitulating with people who want to take your creator granted rights is what RINOs do. hgreen is no RINO.

    markm

  25. #25
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    More News Stories

    We are getting more press coverage with each passing hour.

    Please join our FB page to keep up on all this: http://www.facebook.com/pages/South-...22802434426757

    Or visit our Press page:
    http://www.southbayopencarry.org/press/

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