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Thread: Open carry at a KOA campground?

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    Open carry at a KOA campground?

    Seems "KOA" might be too short for a search query so if this has been discussed once before I apologize.

    I'm looking to plan a road trip to a few of the western national parks for next year around Labor Day and barring any federal law changes, I will be open carrying the whole time (my route takes me through all open carry friendly states, and I'm good in Utah as I have my WA CPL). Most of the trip I'll be camping in the parks but it looks like I'm going to have to make a stop at a KOA in Arizona and Idaho. I'm good to conceal in these two states but wanted to see first if anyone has open carried at a KOA campground.

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    D'oh, for some reason I couldn't find that. Looks like conceal carry it is then, thanks.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    D'oh, for some reason I couldn't find that. Looks like conceal carry it is then, thanks.
    Why are you going to violate their policy, instead of looking for a campground that allows you to carry - either OC or CC?

    stay safe.

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    Lack of options. I haven't been able to find places for car camping that have the same accommodations and amenities (like laundry and shower facilities) as a KOA in Holbrook, AZ and Twin Falls, ID short of a hotel.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    Lack of options. I haven't been able to find places for car camping that have the same accommodations and amenities (like laundry and shower facilities) as a KOA in Holbrook, AZ and Twin Falls, ID short of a hotel.
    OK. I'll ask the question differently. Why are you going to violate their policy? Is a night or two of not sleeping in a tent really going to spoil your vacation?

    While there is a greater likelihood that you will not be found out, why violate the policy in the first place? Why not deal with the added expense and/or time of finding a motel. Holbrook seems to be loaded with them, as does Twin Falls. If you book now you can probably get some good deals.

    On the other hand, sneaking around violating property owners' rights does nothing for being seen as a lawful and law-abiding person. I'm too lazy to see what crimes besides trespass you might commit by violating the posted "no firearms" notice.

    stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    OK. I'll ask the question differently. Why are you going to violate their policy? Is a night or two of not sleeping in a tent really going to spoil your vacation?
    Not saying it won't, but the stop in AZ is an important one. After more than a week without a proper shower and dirty, sweat-soaked clothes piling up, it will be rather difficult to continue on in such an aromatic state.

    While there is a greater likelihood that you will not be found out, why violate the policy in the first place? Why not deal with the added expense and/or time of finding a motel. Holbrook seems to be loaded with them, as does Twin Falls. If you book now you can probably get some good deals.
    It has been my experience that hotels are just as "bad" as the KOA in that they don't allow the carry of firearms "for the safety of other patrons" per their rules. Seems the available options are a campground I'm not suppose to carry at, a hotel that I'm not suppose to carry at, a campground where I can carry but has no amenities and no reservations (petrified forest national park, camping is first come, first serve), or I'm SOL and have to ax the trip or sleep in the car. I can either violate their rule that is impossible to enforce or not carry, I'll let you figure out what the logical choice is considering I'm not violating any state or local laws other than trespass if caught.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    So you are willing to admit that you are willing to and plan to break the law so you can do what you want to do.

    While many hotels/motels do not support OC, I am not aware of any restriction on bringing your sidearm(s) into your room with you.

    I purposely withhold my usual closing salutation. You do not deserve it.

    ETA: you may want to peruse the discussion at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...g-Other-Rights . I doubt it will change your mind, but at least your pigheaded wrong position will be a more informed one.
    Last edited by skidmark; 09-30-2010 at 09:03 PM. Reason: reference to relevant discussion

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    skidmark, interesting thread you cited. I have always agreed with your POV on this, however your petty tyrant explanation hits the nail on the head.

    Oh, and I don't know if this is what term you were looking for (or if there is a more technical term for that particular rhetorical error), but the poster saying that you placed property rights over the right to life was using a strawman. He replaced your actual argument with a ridiculous argument that he could rip apart easily, seemingly having ripped apart your actual argument.

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    Skidmark, I am already fully aware of property rights trumping individual rights and make my decision with this information already in mind, but thanks anyway.
    Last edited by onlurker; 09-30-2010 at 09:36 PM. Reason: Clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I'm trying to come up with some way to use "happy campers" in a smarta$$ comment, but I'm at a loss....

    How about.....

    Happy Campers? or rather DEAD CAMPERS because CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY THE LAW!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    Skidmark, I am already fully aware of property rights trumping individual rights and make my decision with this information already in mind, but thanks anyway.
    Not a problem.

    I'm just sick & tired of folks on OCDO (as well as elsewhere) shouting about how much all the gains we want to make are gong to be based on public perception of the "movement" as being carried out by lawful and law-abiding persons, and then have folks like you go on-line in a public forum and declare that you are going to purposefully and wilfully violate the trespass laws and disregard the rights of privateproperty owners for your own convenience.

    For the record, I vehemently detest having my ability for self protection limited by some useless "no firearms" sign. But also for the record, I do not go around boasting of my intent to or past exploits in blatantly disregarding those signs (if I ever did or intend to violate such).

    still no sign-off salutation for you. [/soup nazi voice]

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It all depends on the trespass law in the state where you decide to do it. Here in Virginia the crime of trespass is committed when you enter onto the property when it is posted or you otherwise knew about the prohibition of carrying firearms.
    18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.
    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen,
    , as well as discussions about ignoring posted (signs on the property or on the property's website) notice
    18.2-23. Conspiring to trespass or commit larceny.
    A. If any person shall conspire, confederate or combine with another or others in the Commonwealth to go upon or remain upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any part, portion or area thereof, having knowledge that any of them have been forbidden, either orally or in writing, to do so by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or having knowledge that any of them have been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted on such lands, buildings, premises or part, portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may reasonably be seen, he shall be deemed guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.
    It;'s not that I'm paranoid about getting busted for trespass or conspiracy to commit trespass. It's that I am respectful of the rights of pigheaded, ignorant, bliss-ninny property owners, just as I would hope they would be of my rights.

    And as far as I know, I have no "right" to carry on someone else's private property, no matter how much you want to discuss 'invite the public' or other attempted qualifiers of the notion of private property.

    I also believe that discussing how and why to blatantly disregard the stupid, ignorant, useless and burdensome rules of a private property owner does nothing to advance public acceptance of the open carry of firearms.

    But that's just me. YMMV.

    No standard closing salutation to any of you. [/soup nazi voice]

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    Not saying it won't, but the stop in AZ is an important one. After more than a week without a proper shower and dirty, sweat-soaked clothes piling up, it will be rather difficult to continue on in such an aromatic state.



    It has been my experience that hotels are just as "bad" as the KOA in that they don't allow the carry of firearms "for the safety of other patrons" per their rules. Seems the available options are a campground I'm not suppose to carry at, a hotel that I'm not suppose to carry at, a campground where I can carry but has no amenities and no reservations (petrified forest national park, camping is first come, first serve), or I'm SOL and have to ax the trip or sleep in the car. I can either violate their rule that is impossible to enforce or not carry, I'll let you figure out what the logical choice is considering I'm not violating any state or local laws other than trespass if caught.
    I have used KOA before and have never seen any policy about CC on the premises. I have also used Motels/Hotels that have policies against firearms. Many of those policies will not stand the light of day in a courtroom for various reasons. One of them being that the room is your "domicile" while you are paying for it. Another is that none of them seem to be aware of the rule of "prior notice". I.E., the policy is not revealed until after you have paid for the room, ergo it becomes legally unenforceable.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    I have used KOA before and have never seen any policy about CC on the premises. I have also used Motels/Hotels that have policies against firearms. Many of those policies will not stand the light of day in a courtroom for various reasons. One of them being that the room is your "domicile" while you are paying for it. Another is that none of them seem to be aware of the rule of "prior notice". I.E., the policy is not revealed until after you have paid for the room, ergo it becomes legally unenforceable.
    Cites?

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    I agree that it's jurisdictional. In MN a "landlord" can not ban a law abiding citizen from carrying in a lawful way. It's all laid out in MN statute 624.714. Subd 9 handles what a permit is not required for and Subd 17 (specifically e) defines trespass and what landlords can't do. The nice thing about the trespass portion of the statute is that even if it is posted you're not trespassing until you are asked to leave, regardless of the sign (at least that's the way I read it).

    So you should be OK if you want to visit or pass through MN. I'm not saying that a KOA in MN (or hotel) might not kick you out if they know you have a weapon but they shouldn't and if they did you would probably have a pretty good basis for a lawsuit.

    Just my opinion of course.
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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    why not go to a hotel and leave the weapon in a locked case anchored in the trunk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    why not go to a hotel and leave the weapon in a locked case anchored in the trunk?
    To put it simply, it boils down to cost. While the difference between a hotel and a KOA is something I would be able to easily afford, I'd rather not spend the added cost if I can make due with "less" while still getting what I need out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    To put it simply, it boils down to cost. While the difference between a hotel and a KOA is something I would be able to easily afford, I'd rather not spend the added cost if I can make due with "less" while still getting what I need out of it.
    Not only cost, but what good does your firearm do for you when it is locked in the trunk and you are in your room? Might as well not bring it at that point.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Cites?
    Look them up yourself. The precedents of prior notice are usually cited in contract law. Every time you rent a hotel/motel room there is a contract between yourself and the owner/proprietor. If the "contract" is not presented to you for your perusal prior to the monies being paid, the clauses of the "contract" not presented are unenforceable.

    I.E., you tell me No loud parties, pool is closed at 10 p.m., etc., but you don't inform me of a firearm policy, either in writing or orally, the firearm policy is legally unenforceable and all the other policies of which I was informed are enforceable.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    I have used KOA before and have never seen any policy about CC on the premises. I have also used Motels/Hotels that have policies against firearms. Many of those policies will not stand the light of day in a courtroom for various reasons. One of them being that the room is your "domicile" while you are paying for it. Another is that none of them seem to be aware of the rule of "prior notice". I.E., the policy is not revealed until after you have paid for the room, ergo it becomes legally unenforceable.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Cites?
    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    Look them up yourself. The precedents of prior notice are usually cited in contract law. Every time you rent a hotel/motel room there is a contract between yourself and the owner/proprietor. If the "contract" is not presented to you for your perusal prior to the monies being paid, the clauses of the "contract" not presented are unenforceable.

    I.E., you tell me No loud parties, pool is closed at 10 p.m., etc., but you don't inform me of a firearm policy, either in writing or orally, the firearm policy is legally unenforceable and all the other policies of which I was informed are enforceable.
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    Moving on.

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    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    "To put it simply, it boils down to cost. While the difference between a hotel and a KOA is something I would be able to easily afford, I'd rather not spend the added cost if I can make due with "less" while still getting what I need out of it."

    What cost is your life? What does your freedom cost? I assume you have a permit to carry, how much would you pay NOT to lose it?

    Point is, you are putting yourself at risk of negative issues, depending on local laws, you could get arrested, or if caught carrying in a known "gun free" area, lose your permit.

    A decent Red Roof is, what $50-70, and many have laundry facilities. The Holbrook KOA charges $70+, depending if you want cable, wifi, and water.

    So. Service your RV (water, brown water, etc) then go to a Red Roof, or other hotel.

    But, if you have total disregard for the KOA owner's rights, and are willing to possibly set yourself up for being kicked off their property, and possibly having to explain yourself to the local LEO, all for the convenience, it makes me wonder what else you are capable of...
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    Quote Originally Posted by HvyMtl View Post
    A decent Red Roof is, what $50-70, and many have laundry facilities. The Holbrook KOA charges $70+, depending if you want cable, wifi, and water.

    So. Service your RV (water, brown water, etc) then go to a Red Roof, or other hotel.
    I'm tent camping FYI, which is $20-something a night. Everything will be piled in a small hatchback.
    Last edited by onlurker; 10-06-2010 at 03:54 PM.

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    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    Holbrook, Az Motel 6 $39.99 before any discount - on site laundry facilities. Free wifi. Refrigerator and Microwave in all rooms. Pets allowed. Kids stay free. Free morning coffee.

    Is $20 in savings important enough to put yourself into a situation which can go badly for you?

    Motel 6 Holbrook #4361
    2514 Navajo Boulevard
    I-40 at Navajo Boulevard, Exit #286 East - #289 West
    Holbrook, AZ, 86025
    Phone: (928) 524-6101

    http://www.motel6.com/reservations/m...=&dDa=&CP=&TA=
    Last edited by HvyMtl; 10-06-2010 at 05:39 PM.
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    Is Motel 6 an open carry friendly establishment?

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    Is Motel 6 an open carry friendly establishment?
    Not Really. In fact they are a real bunch of @#$%@s. Most hotels/motels are. A few years back there was a big flap about hunters and Motel 6, when Americans still owned it. Now the blasted French own it.

    Last edited by OldCurlyWolf; 10-07-2010 at 11:44 PM.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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