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Thread: Lapeer MSP No OC

  1. #1
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    Lapeer MSP No OC

    Stopped at the Lapeer MSP to get directions to the Sec of state. Desk officer told me that I wasn't allowed to OC in the building. I asked if it were a state building (rhetorical) and mensioned preemption. He said that I wasn't allowed to OC there, but he wasn't going to make a big deal out of it. I replied "neither am I" as I was in a hurry, and arguing was pointless. He gave me directions to the SOS, and said that I can't OC there either. I know better, but diddn't say anything. I'll be at SOS this evening just before 7pm when they close, when I get back here, I'll let y'all know what happened.

    Lapeer is a good distance from me, I met a guy there to buy a car today, so I was hoping that some of you who live nearby could follow up on this for me?

  2. #2
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Silly MSP perhaps he should read what his higher-ups put out as training materiel!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Arghhh! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Stopped at the Lapeer MSP to get directions to the Sec of state. Desk officer told me that I wasn't allowed to OC in the building. I asked if it were a state building (rhetorical) and mensioned preemption. He said that I wasn't allowed to OC there, but he wasn't going to make a big deal out of it. I replied "neither am I" as I was in a hurry, and arguing was pointless. He gave me directions to the SOS, and said that I can't OC there either. I know better, but diddn't say anything. I'll be at SOS this evening just before 7pm when they close, when I get back here, I'll let y'all know what happened.

    Lapeer is a good distance from me, I met a guy there to buy a car today, so I was hoping that some of you who live nearby could follow up on this for me?
    If it's a "public" lobby you are allowed to OC there period! We've been through this with the Wayne Co. Sheriff's Dept. Damn, how hard is it for police to read the law...It's like being a pilot and not reading the pre-flight take-off list because "you don't like it", you make up your own that goes like this: Engines to full reverse, Flaps to full, punch it! Then when you hear the crunch you say "What went wrong? I don't understand?"

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    actually...this was discussed at length regarding the msp post in flint.

    i believe that after some discussion, they may be able to have the sign, simply because the msp is not a local unit of government as defined by mcl 123.1102. They are obviously a state run institution, and some person (director?) has been given the authority by the state to make rules pertaining to the msp.

    Although SOS does not have any signs regarding the carrying of firearms, they may also have the power to ban firearms in the future simply because they are not a local unit of government assuming the (person) secretary of state has been given the authority to make such decisions.

    eta: I am diligently listening to the police scanner in lapeer county from now until 7pm
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-29-2010 at 06:48 PM.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    actually...this was discussed at length regarding the msp post in flint.

    i believe that after some discussion, they may be able to have the sign, simply because the msp is not a local unit of government as defined by mcl 123.1102. They are obviously a state run institution, and some person (director?) has been given the authority by the state to make rules pertaining to the msp.

    Although SOS does not have any signs regarding the carrying of firearms, they may also have the power to ban firearms in the future simply because they are not a local unit of government assuming the (person) secretary of state has been given the authority to make such decisions.

    eta: I am diligently listening to the police scanner in lapeer county from now until 7pm
    To the best of my knowledge, the MSP has not been vested with regulatory authority, and therefore can make no laws/regulations. Same applies to SOS. "Independent Agencies" can only make administrative law if authorized by law to do so in their charter. Cite me the law that says the MSP can make up laws about their buildings...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
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    OCed at SOS no issues, funny looks, or comments.

    IANAL, but I'm with Q on this one, The SOS, and MSP are part of the State system, and they are therefore, not above the state lawss either. They have to follow the laws too, or have to prove publicly, and in court why they are not obligated to follow the laws of the state, being the state. The MSP especially, as the job we gave them is to enforce the laws, not to make them, nor is it their place to make up laws as they go, or to declare themselves to be above the laws of the state. the police are here to serve the state, and its people.

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    So, would they try to pop you for trespass? And would it stick in a public building?

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    Pasted from another thread. I am on my phone and having trouble with quotes and bold function


    Originally Posted by Michigander
    Any viewpoints on what the bolded portion indicates?



    28.9 Rules and regulations of department adopted by commissioner.

    Sec. 9.

    The commissioner shall make and adopt rules and regulations for the direction, control, discipline and conduct of the members of said department, for promotion on the basis of seniority of service, qualifications being equal, of the officers of the department, for the filing and hearing of charges against such officers and he may make any other rules and regulations for the governing and operation of said department as shall appear to him reasonably necessary to carry out the purposes of this act. He may require any officer or employe, who may receive and/or disburse public funds in the course of his duties, to file a bond conditioned that he will honestly, correctly, and according to law receive, disburse, pay over and/or account for all public moneys coming into his hands, such bond to be approved as to form, amount and surety by the attorney general.


    In 2003, Mike Cox authored opinion # 7123 regarding the power of the Department of Natural Resources to regulate the possession of firearms by those with a CPL. In this opinion, Mr. Cox stated that "A person licensed to carry a concealed pistol is subject to the rules, regulations, and orders of the Department of Natural Resources regulating the possession of firearms"

    Since that time, the law giving the power of the DNRE to regulate pistols, MCL 324.504, 324.43510, and 324.43516 were amended; the DNR(E) no longer has the power to regulate the possession of firearms outside of hunting/trapping.

    However, there have not been any changes made to other state level departments, such as the MSP, and their ability to regulate the possession of firearms. Therefore, based on Mr Cox's opinion, the MSP may have the power to regulate the possession of firearms in those areas which the commissioner has been determined to have exclusive control.

    Opinion 7123
    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10198.htm
    [/quote]
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-30-2010 at 07:03 AM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Eric D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    Your link doesn't seem to work. Could you please try again?

  10. #10
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric D View Post
    Your link doesn't seem to work. Could you please try again?
    Welcome to OCDO.

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10198.htm

  11. #11
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    This appears to give the commissioner executive authority over 'members' of his/her department, not the general public; somewhat akin to a Presidential Executive Order binding only the members of the Executive Department.

    Carry on

    "28.9 Rules and regulations of department adopted by commissioner.

    Sec. 9.

    The commissioner shall make and adopt rules and regulations for the direction, control, discipline and conduct of the members of said department, ..."
    Last edited by jmlefler; 09-30-2010 at 08:56 AM.

  12. #12
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    actually...this was discussed at length regarding the msp post in flint.

    i believe that after some discussion, they may be able to have the sign, simply because the msp is not a local unit of government as defined by mcl 123.1102. They are obviously a state run institution, and some person (director?) has been given the authority by the state to make rules pertaining to the msp.

    Although SOS does not have any signs regarding the carrying of firearms, they may also have the power to ban firearms in the future simply because they are not a local unit of government assuming the (person) secretary of state has been given the authority to make such decisions.

    eta: I am diligently listening to the police scanner in lapeer county from now until 7pm
    Preemption doesn't apply per say, BUT there is no law against having firearms in state public buildings. In fact you can carry in SOS, Hell you can carry into the damn Capital. So the MSP can not ban firearms from the lobby area.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a thread, ages ago, where it was found that the Health Dept., also a state agency, was able to ban firearms from their buildings because they were given legal authority to make rules as they saw fit for the safety and coduct of people visiting Health Dept. offices? If one state agency can be given that authority then any state agency can be given that authority.

    Kinda like the State Fair Commission was given legal authority to ban firearms on State Fairgrounds (yes, I know that commission is now defunct).

    I don't know if the MSP has been given the authority to do so but, if I'm remembering the old thread correctly, the precedence may exist.

    Bronson
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  14. #14
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    If one state agency can be given that authority then any state agency can be given that authority.
    Any agency CAN be given that authority, but that authority would need to come from law (the legislature).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Preemption doesn't apply per say, BUT there is no law against having firearms in state public buildings. In fact you can carry in SOS, Hell you can carry into the damn Capital. So the MSP can not ban firearms from the lobby area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Wasn't there a thread, ages ago, where it was found that the Health Dept., also a state agency, was able to ban firearms from their buildings because they were given legal authority to make rules as they saw fit for the safety and coduct of people visiting Health Dept. offices? If one state agency can be given that authority then any state agency can be given that authority.

    Kinda like the State Fair Commission was given legal authority to ban firearms on State Fairgrounds (yes, I know that commission is now defunct).

    I don't know if the MSP has been given the authority to do so but, if I'm remembering the old thread correctly, the precedence may exist.

    Bronson
    This is correct.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-30-2010 at 08:17 PM.
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  16. #16
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    so can they ban firearms or can't they. unless its provided for in the law i don't see how they can just MSU and do what they want.

    (MSU) also stands for make s**t up

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    (MSU) also stands for make s**t up
    Now that's funny.

    In a different conversation, I would like to see the MCL they would try to charge you with.

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