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Thread: WCI Chairman Nik Clark and Madison Police Chief Noble Wray on Wisconsin Eye

  1. #1
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc.'s Avatar
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    WCI Chairman Nik Clark and Madison Police Chief Noble Wray on Wisconsin Eye

    It will take the page a minute to load, and then you can watch the Chairman and the Chief discuss the Madison 5 issue.

    www.wisconsincarry.org/news.html

    www.wisconsincarry.org/video/WisconsinEye_OpenCarry.wmv

    http://71.87.25.133/IVOD/NMK/NMK_100929_open_carry.wmv
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc.; 09-29-2010 at 09:07 PM.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    This is my personal opinion

    I am watching the video now and hearing this "Chief" and I use that term LOOSELY obviously does not believe his own BS.

    Nice job Nik, I can only IMAGINE how hard it was to bite your tongue during this "Chiefs" comments.


    Amazing that he thinks the citations issued are justified.

    Where is the audio from the second call ? I have heard nothing of this until watching the video.
    Last edited by rotty; 09-29-2010 at 09:30 PM.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

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    after seeing that it seems like everything after the obstruction charges were filed has been to avoid a civil suit or at least avoid loosing a civil suit. That is alot of harassment for cover yer ass action.

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    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    So according to Chief "Not so" Noble Wray, eating at Culver's could be considered disorderly conduct if ANYONE were to call and question a person's actions? Wow.

    911, what is your emergency?
    Um yes, there is a small child screaming loudly because they're 2 years old.
    Sir, that isn't an emergency....
    But, I'm at Culver's and trying to eat peacefully, isn't that disorderly behavior?
    Yes sir, it is. We're sending SWAT now....

  5. #5
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Is there any difference in the three links provided?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Very good Nik, I hope that things keep going mainstream.

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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    They seem to be the same video, so don't worry about opening all three in different tabs.

    I'll be watching it in half an hour.

  8. #8
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    I am watching the video now and hearing this "Chief" and I use that term LOOSELY obviously does not believe his own BS.

    Nice job Nik, I can only IMAGINE how hard it was to bite your tongue during this "Chiefs" comments.


    Amazing that he thinks the citations issued are justified.

    Where is the audio from the second call ? I have heard nothing of this until watching the video.
    Vicki McKenna mentioned something rather interesting at Culvers last Saturday night. She said that some of the inside chatter is that the Chief and Mayor do not see eye to eye and that the Chief is actually a good guy and wants the city to lose so that he doesn't have to go against the Mayor, who has the power to fire him.

    You would have to ask her for more details.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc.'s Avatar
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    All Three Links are the SAME video

    I simply wanted to ensure everybody was able to view it.
    Hubert Hoffman, Vice President
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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    Hubert@wisconsincarry.org
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    http://www.wisconsincarry.org
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    Great job Nik.....but,

    I wish you would have said, "Chief, are you suggesting that rights, lawfully exercised, becomes disorderly conduct if the exercise of the right "disturbs" someone else. If not, why not?" " What other rights do you apply the same policy to?"

    Here is a quick story to show how solid the legal ground we stand on is in my humble opinion. In the 1970s, the Nazi party wanted to march in Skokie IL., a suburb of Chicago. Skokie denied the Nazis a permit to march because Skokie has a very large Jewish population and many residents at the time were either Holocaust survivors or relatives of survivors and victims of the Holocaust. The Skokie officials feared the horror that would be imposed on many of its residents should they allow the march and also feared violence. The Jewish Defense League offered rewards for anyone that would injure or kill a Nazi. So Skokie denied them a permit to march.

    The case went all the way to the SCOTUS and they ruled Skokie must allow the march, freedom of speech and all that. The exercise of the right took precedence over the fear of offending or scaring people. In the end, the Nazis wisely chose not to March in Skokie. How is our situation any different from a legal perspective?

    If I am all wet on this let me know.
    Last edited by Max; 09-29-2010 at 10:38 PM.

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    Thanks Nik, you did a great job. Very professional, well thought out, and kept the discussion impersonal and on topic. Have you reviewed the "second 911 call" tape?

  12. #12
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Wray keeps repeated "totality of circumstances." It's a nice phrase he probably learned back in police academy. But what ARE the circumstances in this case? 5 guys sitting around minding their own business for two hours while enjoying burgers and shakes. How much lower could the standard be?
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  13. #13
    bhancock
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Wray keeps repeated "totality of circumstances." It's a nice phrase he probably learned back in police academy. But what ARE the circumstances in this case? 5 guys sitting around minding their own business for two hours while enjoying burgers and shakes. How much lower could the standard be?
    Exactly, unless in after thought he is counting in all the anxiety of the customers caused by the police response. I also noticed he had to 'wake' up ever time the moderator called on him, and almost every time he was back to the 'totality' of circumstances crutch.

  14. #14
    bhancock
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    When the moderator noticed Nik's sidearm, I was waiting for the chief's tactical response, frisk, seperation, and investigation into whether or not he was legally carrying and if the moderator or professor 'felt' threatened or uneasy.

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Vicki McKenna mentioned something rather interesting at Culvers last Saturday night. She said that some of the inside chatter is that the Chief and Mayor do not see eye to eye and that the Chief is actually a good guy and wants the city to lose so that he doesn't have to go against the Mayor, who has the power to fire him.

    You would have to ask her for more details.
    The Madison "I am a hunter" mayor is a member of Mayors Against Guns. So it is quite possible that pressure was put on the chief to adopt Barrett's and Herr Flynn's tactics.

  16. #16
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    I wish you would have said,
    Truly in retrospect, the most difficult part about doing these things (interviews/debate/panel discussion) is that you listen back and there are so many things you would like to say having the time to review and dwell on it.

    First before you get the chance to rebut a comment by the chief, the moderators asks another question, so you want to answer the question asked, then go back and rebut a previous comment. Its nearly impossible to say all you could say and want to say.

    The real question I would like to ask the chief. Is that he admits that open-carry is legal and its not "automatic" disorderly conduct.

    He suggested off camera that their officers saw our members carrying down state street last Saturday and there was NO contact.

    SO that begs the question of the chief "please explain what our members did AND what other members can "not" do to avoid getting charged with DC."

    Its NOT right to make this big ambiguous "case by case" claim and "totality of the circumstance" comments and not explain precisely what our members did.

    With respect to the law abiding people of Wisconsin who have a constitutional right to carry a sidearm, the Chief has an OBLIGATION to follow the law and let people know what to expect.

    He can't leave it "case by case" he can't say "take your chances guys, we might arrest you we might not" Thats a mockery of constitutional rights.

    The people of Madison deserve better.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    He suggested off camera that their officers saw our members carrying down state street last Saturday and there was NO contact.

    SO that begs the question of the chief "please explain what our members did AND what other members can "not" do to avoid getting charged with DC."
    So.... exactly what did we do wrong other than challenge the authority of the police?

  18. #18
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Vicki McKenna mentioned something rather interesting at Culvers last Saturday night. She said that some of the inside chatter is that the Chief and Mayor do not see eye to eye and that the Chief is actually a good guy and wants the city to lose so that he doesn't have to go against the Mayor, who has the power to fire him.

    You would have to ask her for more details.
    Interesting theory, but not true. The mayor has neither the power to hire nor to fire the police chief, who works at the pleasure of the Police and Fire Commission.
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  19. #19
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    So.... exactly what did we do wrong other than challenge the authority of the police?

    Exactly. If "something" you guys did was wrong, doesn't the chief owe it to the rest of the open-carriers in Madison (and you guys who will continue to exercise your right) the courtesy of a specific explanation of the conduct that led to DC charges INSTEAD of these vague "well you have to look at the totality of the circumstances" and "case by case" basis.

    To be honest, I think he's intentionally creating ambiguity to FURTHER create fear. If he explained what HIS department considers legal OC'ing, then people could OC without fear.

    I have a feeling what HIS department considers illegal doesn't hold water compared to state law.

    I mean what "totality" If walking down state street is legal OC'ing but going into Culvers is not??? Hogwash. State law specifically forbids carry in certain places (gov. buildings, school zones, bars without permission) IF the legislature intended to prohibit carry in fast-food restaurants they could have made it a law.

    They chose not to. Chief Wray can't make it his own law that carry in Culvers is part of the "totality".

    He's not telling what you guys did wrong because he can't. You guys didn't do anything wrong. He knows it. I know it. He's hiding behind ambiguous statements to muddy the water because he knows there IS not logical explanation to your being cited. No logical explanation other than that the PD is trying to cover up their error by upping the ante issuing new charges.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Is the 2nd 911 call available yet? Did I miss it being posted?

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    Regular Member JerryD's Avatar
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    Second 911 call

    Do you have it? or have you heard it? if it wasn't released with FOIA request any idea why not?
    Last edited by JerryD; 09-30-2010 at 12:31 AM.

  22. #22
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    Nice Job Nik.

    One question, If you filed an ORR for the 911 call, how come the police did not give you the info on the 2nd call?
    Seems to me they are in violation of the Open Records Law by not disclosing that info to you.

    Ok, two questions. We no through experience that these departments do not learn anything unless you take their money. Why is WCI only going after attorney fees? Feel free to respond in a PM if you like. I am just curious.
    Seems to me that if you don't hit them where it hurts they will just continue with the same behavior until someone does.

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    Re "totality of circumstances"

    'I don't know what you mean by "totality of circumstances,"' Alice said.

    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

    'But "totality of circumstances" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

    'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'

    'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

    'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master—that's all.'

  24. #24
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Nice job Nik.

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    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Nice job Nik!


    I understand why we have to take the higher road and stick to the talking points; but it would have been great comedy to work Wray's son into the argument. After looking at the totality of circumstances perhaps Wray holds the opinion that he does because he fears his son being shot by a citizen while he is the process of committing another felony theft?

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