Hi all. I started reading this thread yesterday and just finished. I have enjoyed it tremendously. Very fascinating, very intelligent discussion, one of the most intelligent I have read in a very long time. It reminds me of a time many, many years ago when I took a philosophy class (love philosophy). Some of the class would get together after class and have coffee and continue the discussion. I loved it, loved the intelligent discussion based on ideas, beliefs, theories, rather than the news in the media, latest gossip, etc. This thread has brought to mind that very happy memory.
My personal beliefs are probably close to what irish described. I have been around long enough to see the damage done by religion, hence I no longer subscribe to it. The true purpose and beauty of religion as been usurped by those who use it for their own evil ends. This has happened in most, if not all religions. The Crusades come to mind, as well as the present Muslim terroists. Not all Christians agreed with the Crusaders nor are all Muslims terrorists; not saying that at all. I am not nearly as well informed as the rest of you, I only know what I believe and have experienced. I have found some of the ideas expressed here do challenge me and I like that. I like to have my thinking challenged and possibly see another way to look at things. Do you, those of you posting on this thread, realize what a rare thing this is these days?!?
Though I do not believe in religion, I can see the value it holds and the beauty it has when it is not corrupted by those wanting to use it for their own ends. It unites people of similar faith and gives them comfort in knowing that there are others around them of similar faith. That faith is what sustains us in difficult times and gives meaning to our lives. I do not believe in organized religion, going to church, etc. because I see that as someone having power over other people. I do, however, have a great amount of faith; faith in a power and an intelligence much greater than that of anyone on this earth. I don't think it matters what it is called, whether that be God, Allah, Great Spirit, etc. I think one of the problems with this kind of discussion it that we are trying to describe something infinite using finite parameters, which is an exercise in futility. How do you describe the indecribable?!? The same thing with the "something from nothing" paradox. Why can't something come from nothing, especially since we don't know the nature of this "nothing"?!? We are just at the beginning of understanding our small part of the universe, let alone the whole thing, the nature of "nothing", "something", or "God" for that matter. We are trying to wrap finite minds around infinite concepts. We have an extremely difficult time trying to understand that all of "this" existed long before us and will exist long after us. The human mind wants a definite beginning and end, wants parameters, because we live in a finite world with limits and boundaries; it's what our brains deal with best, it's what they were created for. It's when we try to go beyond that that we run into difficulties. We cannot prove that anything existed prior to our own existence. If it did, we were not here to experience it. We have stories, handed down of what was before humankind was and we accept it based on faith, or not. One of my greatest wishes is that people would accept the fact that what they believe is true for them is true FOR THEM, not necessarily the rest of the world. It seems so many people feel threatened in some way unless others believe the same way they do. Hogwash! Let everyone believe the way they want to without any interference from others and stop trying to foist your beliefs off on other people. This is a general statement to people who do this, NOT in reference to anyone posting on this thread. The only exception I would make is if a person's beliefs threaten harm to other people; I would definitely draw the line there.
Just my .02, YMMV
