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Thread: How do you respond if confronted?

  1. #1
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    How do you respond if confronted?

    I'm new! (yay)
    And I was hoping for some advice on how to act or what to say if I was confronted or hassled because I was OC ing. By an LEO, manager or security guard type of person at a business, or just a regular person. What's the right way to handle that situation so that I seem educated and know my rights? I have heard about presenting pamphlets regarding MI's laws. Are there pamphlets available? Thanks!
    Last edited by Bubbs; 09-30-2010 at 01:30 PM.

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    Welcome.

    That's quite a bit to respond to. I suggest you read a few thousand posts here, because your questions are pretty much the stuff of which we discuss here.

    Check out the Michigan (I assume you are living in Michigan) forum for answers that take into account the uniquenesses of State law.

    Then strap on and carry on!

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    +1 to what eye95 said. ( I cannot believe I'm saying that!)

    Probably the best advice on how tro deal with a confrontation is to say nothing and comply with the request(s)/order(s) being given.

    As for replying to questions about why you carry, why you are carrying here, etc. you are going to have to figure that out on your own. Depending on how much you know, how much you think the other person wants to know, and how much time each of you wants to devote to the matter all drive the selection of a response if you are trying to educate someone about OC.

    If you can go to any of the OC events near where you are you can get a feel for what others are doing and how they do it. That seems to be the way a lot of folks pick out a style.

    stay safe.

  4. #4
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Probably the best advice on how tro deal with a confrontation is to say nothing and comply with the request(s)/order(s) being given.
    Make sure you state that you do not consent to any illegal searches and seizures. There is a lot to learn, as has been stated. Read. A lot. These posts are a good place to start, but you should read the laws for yourself.

  5. #5
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    As far as being contacted by LEOs, it hasn't happened to me yet. Be sure to ask, "Am I free to go?" and/or "Am I being detained?" Never consent to searches or seizures of your person or property.

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    Ask, "Am I free to go?" first. If the LEO says yes, go. If he says no, ask, "Am I being detained?" If he says yes, ask him what specific crime he has RAS of. If he says no, then ask, "Am I under arrest?" If he answers yes, clam up. If he answers no, go back to question 1 with something like this: "If I am not being detained or arrested, then I must be free to go, right?"

    If the officer says he is detaining you, but cannot identify the crime he has RAS of, go back to question 1 with something like this: "If you do not have RAS of a crime, then I must be free to go, right?" If he names a crime, clam up.

    If a LEO is improperly detaining you, give him the rope to hang himself.

    Oh, and your recorder is running the whole time.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Your responses to LEOs will based on your state laws. This question could be answered much better in your state forum.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Whether or not a LEO has RAS being a requirement to detain is not State-specific. It is based on Terry v. Ohio.

    I'd check State laws to determine whether you can record the interaction and whether you have to answer name/address questions or produce ID.

    However, the "Am I free to go?" and "Am I being detained?" questions are meaningful questions nationwide.
    Last edited by eye95; 10-05-2010 at 08:50 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    Your responses to LEOs will based on your state laws...
    Errr, just as the freedom I and many others fought many years for, arrest is a federal, Cnstitituional issue.

    Eye95 is right.

    If it even remotely looks like you're being placed under arrest, simply put your arms behind your back (resisting arrest gets really, REALLY ugly), and ask, "Am I under arrest? If so, what for?"

    TONS of laws on are your side at that point. At that point, 100% of the entire books of our law are placed on the shoulders of the arresting officers and our legal system.

    If you resist, though, TONS of laws are against you, and you can, and most likely will be buried under the other tons of laws designed to protect our legal system.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Whimpering, kissing of booted feet optional - sometimes.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Never been "Confronted" in Arizona. I OC nearly each day.

  12. #12
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    The only negative encounter I have every had when OC'ing was with a customer at a local MacDonalds. He claimed he was a retired LEO however, judging by his accent, he was likely from some other part of the country - probably somewhere up north. I have never had a negative encounter or comment of any sort from an LEO while OC'ing.

    As for the fella in the MacDonalds... When he left, our mayor came up to me and a friend with whom I was sitting and asked us what that was all about (she knows both of us). We explained and she went away wondering what's wrong with some people (as in the instigator who left).
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 10-16-2010 at 08:50 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Ask, "Am I free to go?" first. If the LEO says yes, go. If he says no, ask, "Am I being detained?" If he says yes, ask him what specific crime he has RAS of. If he says no, then ask, "Am I under arrest?" If he answers yes, clam up. If he answers no, go back to question 1 with something like this: "If I am not being detained or arrested, then I must be free to go, right?"

    If the officer says he is detaining you, but cannot identify the crime he has RAS of, go back to question 1 with something like this: "If you do not have RAS of a crime, then I must be free to go, right?" If he names a crime, clam up.

    If a LEO is improperly detaining you, give him the rope to hang himself.

    Oh, and your recorder is running the whole time.
    What does RAS stand for. I went to a dictionary of acronyms. It isn't running and screaming is it? Couldn't find anything that seemed to fit.

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junglebob View Post
    What does RAS stand for. I went to a dictionary of acronyms. It isn't running and screaming is it? Couldn't find anything that seemed to fit.
    Reasonable Articulable Suspicion.

    This is a very important legal construct which you really need to know. There is a wealth of information about this on the web along with the next level: Probable Cause. Whether or not someone carries a firearm for self defense, these are significant legal concepts to understand since they affect your rights under the Constitution's Bill of Rights. Very important indeed and highly recommended research on your part.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    The words "reasonable suspicion" come from written laws. "Articulable" comes from court decisions. Not only must an officer have reasonable suspicion to detain you, he must be able to articulate it--put it into words.

    When I asked the officer who detained me why I was being detained, he said, "Investigation." I asked him, "Investigation of what?" He said, "That's what I am investigating." He could not articulate the crime I was suspected of committing. His stop of me was unlawful.

  16. #16
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The words "reasonable suspicion" come from written laws. "Articulable" comes from court decisions. Not only must an officer have reasonable suspicion to detain you, he must be able to articulate it--put it into words.

    When I asked the officer who detained me why I was being detained, he said, "Investigation." I asked him, "Investigation of what?" He said, "That's what I am investigating." He could not articulate the crime I was suspected of committing. His stop of me was unlawful.
    Did the officer then let you leave? Seems like he was on a fishing expedition with a response like that.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Did the officer then let you leave? Seems like he was on a fishing expedition with a response like that.
    I was detained for two hours. The original detaining officer was a corporal. He called out his lieutenant and his captain before I was allowed to go. Clearly, they were trying to maximize what they believed to be the legal hassling of me for having had the audacity to violate what they think is or should be the law.

    It all worked out well. The deputy chief met with me a couple of times and apologized. The city attorney researched the law and apologized too. I have had contact with other officers, as have others local members. The policy and training seem to be working. We haven't been hassled since.

    However, the detention was still unlawful. I just chose to use the incident as an opportunity to educate the Montgomery PD. It worked.

    Montgomery now gets it. Birmingham still doesn't. Education won't work there. It'll take a lawsuit.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    To elaborate, not that it really needs it, OC in Jefferson County, AL is mostly hassle free. The problem being that the times you get hassled it is by police who are trying to see how far they can push and how hard we will push back. The biggest problem seems to be the officers who say "Oh, we know OC is legal, but..." and then go on to assert we are being Disorderly, or Disturbing the Peace, or that we are Trespassing.

    Like eye said, there won't be a resolution to this issue without court decisions.

  19. #19
    Regular Member frommycolddeadhands's Avatar
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    First make sure you know what your local laws and ordinances regarding open carry are in your area. Do a quick google search and you should be able to find the official info rather easily. If you want to be real slick you can get the statutes printed out on a business card and keep it in your wallet for easy reference, or just print 'em out, highlight them, fold it up and keep it in your pocket or wallet.

    I cannot overstate the importance of knowing the laws of your area. Not just the gun laws, but also the difference between detainment, arrest, a lawful search and an illegal search, as well as reasonable suspicion and probable cause.

    Best strategies for Police encounters: The golden rule with police encounters is to be polite and know your rights. Just because a police officer wants to talk to you doesn't necessarily mean they are out to get you. Keep answers short and polite. If the cop begins to hassle you just keep your cool, remain polite, and assert your rights. Don't give a cop any excuse to arrest or detain you. Be on your best behavior and act as a model citizen during the encounter, this will only help you in the long run. As stated before you should ask if you are being detained or arrested, and if you are free to leave.

    If the cop says that you are detained or arrested then it's time to exercise your right to remain silent. Don't resist arrest, don't give them any excuses to add a charge against you. Even if the initial charge is bogus, if you resist arrest it gives them something real to charge you with. Again, be polite, then keep quiet until a lawyer can get there. You can always fight a bogus charge through legal channels.

    As far as average joe citizen who is just asking questions or wants to confront you about open carry, it's up to you. I still recommend being polite (Its good for OCers everywhere) educate when possible. I've never been in an angry confrontation regarding a firearm, so I guess just handle it the best way you can, and keep your cool.
    God is the one driving this stagecoach, I'm just riding shotgun.

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    Go to the Michigan section. It's very well addressed there specific to state laws. This has been a hard fight to educate our LEO's and others but it has worked very well (for the most part). We have certain members here and the Michigan Gun Owners and others to thank for that. The basics are (IANAL) you can open carry YOUR weapon w/o a CPL. You can't carry in a car w/o a CPL. There are Pistol Free Zones that you cannot carry openly or otherwise w/o a CPL. There are PFZ's that you can only carry openly in only if you have a CPL. You can record conversations with LEO's and should. Michigan is not a "give me your papers please" state.
    Everything I wrote is intentionally vague because there is just too much info for me to sit and re-type when you can just go and read it elswhere directly from cites and read the explanations written by those that that are alot better at it than me.

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    LOL... you guys keep posting and giving him good information, but his profile shows he hasn't been back to this forum since 3:56pm on the day he posted the question.

    Although I find that humorous, it's also a bit of a shame. I think it was a good question, and I like the responses.

    Oh well...

    And, yes... I understand he *could* be reading the responses without logging in. Why do people do that?
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Also...

    When we answer someone's questions or respond to another in a debate, others read our replies. I bear that in mind whenever I reply in a thread. My posts are as much directed at those others as to the person to whom I am immediately responding.

    So, even if the person whose question I answered never reads the answer, I have no regrets about taking the time to answer.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    When we answer someone's questions or respond to another in a debate, others read our replies. I bear that in mind whenever I reply in a thread. My posts are as much directed at those others as to the person to whom I am immediately responding.

    So, even if the person whose question I answered never reads the answer, I have no regrets about taking the time to answer.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdonalk View Post
    To elaborate, not that it really needs it, OC in Jefferson County, AL is mostly hassle free. The problem being that the times you get hassled it is by police who are trying to see how far they can push and how hard we will push back. The biggest problem seems to be the officers who say "Oh, we know OC is legal, but..." and then go on to assert we are being Disorderly, or Disturbing the Peace, or that we are Trespassing.

    Like eye said, there won't be a resolution to this issue without court decisions.
    I'm inclined to believe that next time the best solution may be to offer up the 1955 AG opinion and immediately clam up.

    I'm not a lawyer, and I want to see what magic crockery we're going to see come March... I want to know what they think is chargeable.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    When we answer someone's questions or respond to another in a debate, others read our replies. I bear that in mind whenever I reply in a thread. My posts are as much directed at those others as to the person to whom I am immediately responding.

    So, even if the person whose question I answered never reads the answer, I have no regrets about taking the time to answer.
    Very true. It's been an informative thread for me. Thanks. I have a related question in speaking with an LEO. What would be the proper way respond if ever asked by an LEO to let them hold on to your firearm for their safety for the duration of the stop/encounter? Of course provided you haven't given them a legitimate reason for this question to be asked.

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