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Thread: Need advice - City of Novi ordinance against carrying a weapon on your own land!

  1. #1
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    Need advice - City of Novi ordinance against carrying a weapon on your own land!

    Hello everyone! I am new to the forum but have spent several months browsing this form and other websites regarding open carry laws. I recently bought and moved into a house in the city of Novi, where apparently we have very restrictive ordinances regarding firearms.

    I called and spoke to the city clerk and the assistant to the chief of police regarding the legality of shooting (with a crossbow) a groundhog on my property. She (probably clueless) informed me that it was illegal for me to carry a weapon of any kind on my own property if I am outside the four walls of my domicile, much less discharge it. I almost dropped the phone, but I composed myself, thanked her and hung up.

    I have posted the ordinance she cited below:

    Sec. 22-129. Possession of dangerous or deadly weapons; transportation of firearms.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person in the city to:
    (1) Have in his possession, except within his own domicile, or carry or use an air-gun, BB gun, gas-operated gun or spring gun, or any instrument or weapon commonly known as a pea shooter, sling shot, wrist rocket sling shot, or any bow made for the purpose of throwing or projecting missiles of any kind by any means whatsoever, whether such instrument is called by any name set forth above or by any other name;


    This ordinance seems to prohibit carrying a weapon on your property outside of the "domicile". It makes no exception to concealed carry owners in this clause, but it does address it in another clause later on. Further reading can be found at:

    http://library1.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

    Simply enter "firearm" into the search box and it will bring up the ordinance that I posted above, along with other firearms-related items.

    I understand that pre-emption law in Michigan should rule this null and void and I certainly do not intend to follow it, but I am very active in local politics and I want to fight this with the city attorney.

    If anyone can provide me some information on how to go about doing this and their 10-cent opinion on the wording of this ordinance, it would be greatly appreciated!

    Thank you all in advance!

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Looks like old #6 needs an OC event (NOVI = marker 6 in Roman numerals off markers)

    You are correct. This is complete rubbish & you are not required to obey unlawful ordinances of a local municipality. As to your idea of approaching the City attorney remember this: They are hired & fired at the whim of city officials therefore there is a conflict of interests from the outset on their part & they will always side with their bosses lest being terminated by them. This is also true for Police Chiefs. As you can see the system is stacked against you. I suggest working with sprinklerguy28 & others to coordinate a plan to approach them first with a carrot in hand & if that fails (usually does with these types) then with a large stick (or other household item not covered in their banned items list).

    Doesn't this city have many festivals that we could attend in large groups? (Wink, wink).
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 10-01-2010 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Politically correct now ;)

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    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    hmmmm the ordiance agaisnt bows is something they could hang you on, although it does mention "gas operated" in relation to air guns, and although almost all modern semi-automatic firearms use a "gas" operated system of some type you are covered by pre-emption for "firearms" bows airguns slings and crossbows, and knives however are not protected under 123.1102 so unless your rural and i don't think you are then i say trap'em or poision'em.

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    IANAL. I believe that trapping and poisoning are both illegal, but I really don't care. True, peemption doesn't cover crossbows, but its the most stealthy way to get rid of a pest. As long as you don't skewer the animal, and it gets away with your bolt stuck in him, that could be bad if someone found it later and figured it belonged to you.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-01-2010 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    It would seem they are within the law.

    Sec. 22-129. Possession of dangerous or deadly weapons; transportation of firearms.

    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person in the city to:


    (1) Have in his possession, except within his own domicile, or carry or use an air-gun, BB gun, gas-operated gun or spring gun, or any instrument or weapon commonly known as a pea shooter, sling shot, wrist rocket sling shot, or any bow made for the purpose of throwing or projecting missiles of any kind by any means whatsoever, whether such instrument is called by any name set forth above or by any other name; (no mention of firearms)


    (2) Have in his possession, except within his own domicile, or carry or use any other deadly weapon, the primary purpose or use of which is as a weapon capable of inflicting death or serious physical injury, including, but not limited to, all of the following:
    a. A knife which has a blade that is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force, and if released is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device;

    b. A knife which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device;

    c. A shuriken or other similar multipointed or star-shaped object made from a hard substance and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when propelled or thrown by human force;

    d. A tekagi, shuko, or other similar object made of a hard substance and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when attached to or fitted upon the hand and propelled by human force;

    e. A nunchaku, zoobow, klackers, kung fu sticks, flail sticks, or other similar objects consisting of two (2) lengths of metal, wood, plastic, or other hard substance connected at one (1) end and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when propelled by human force;

    f. A shinobi-zue or other staff, stick, or pole concealing a knife or blade which may be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical device;

    g. A manrikigusari or other object consisting of a length of rope, chain, leather, cord, or flexible substance, having one (1) or more weighted ends and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when propelled by human force;

    h. A sword cane, umbrella sword cane, or similar device;

    i. A blowgun or other object consisting of a pipe or tube through which darts, pellets or other missiles may be propelled by a person's breath. (no mention of firearms)


    (3) Transport in any public place, or have in possession in or upon any vehicle, any of the items listed in subsections (a)(1) or (a)(2), unless the same be carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. (no mention of firearms)


    (4) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law, or, if licensed, carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license. (this mirrors state law)

    MCL 123.1102 only applies to firearms so Novi can restrict the possession of all of those other weapons without falling afoul of state law.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Remind me to stay out of Nazi Novi.

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    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    +1 I do not see any illegal firearms restrictions in those ordinances.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    someone has been watching way to many bad ninja movies!

    note to ninjas,,,, stay out of NOVI!

  10. #10
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Yep all the items they have banned are legal for them to ban.

    The best way LEGALLY is to live trap it and take it for a swim in the trap on the way to the country to release....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Thanks for the replies so far!

    I am not so much concerned about shooting the groundhogs as I was concerned about not being able to carry on my own property. I do agree that the statute seems to oddly make no reference to firearms specifically, but the line about "gas-operated" weapons seems (to me, at least) to include gas-operated firearms.

    In any case, it may very well be that the ordinance is completely legal and the assistant to the chief of police was just telling me that firearms were included in that list without really knowing. I wouldn't put it past them to spread misinformation.

    As far as festivals, I'll have to get back to you on that specifically. They do have a 50's Festival that happens in the summer and Novi is a pretty hopping place in terms of night life on the weekends, so an open carry meeting would be a great idea. I'd be all over that.

  12. #12
    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    The lady needs to refer to a dictionary

    The lady needs to refer to a dictionary before giving wrong information on the words used


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domicile

    Domicile
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
    Look up domicile in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

    In architecture, domicile is a general term for a place of residence or "permanent residence" in legal terms
    Domicile, a thrash metal band from Manchester, England
    Domicile (astrology), the "rulership" or "house " of a planetary body. Each planet has its domicile in the sign or signs it rules
    Domicile (airline), a location where aircrew are centered to staff aircraft. These locations are typically at a scheduled service passenger airline's, cargo airline's, or charter airline's main focus city or hub in larger metropolitan areas.
    Domicile (law) is a term that is relevant for determining certain legal questions such as the jurisdiction of a court, or the law governing inheritance and succession. A person may have many places of residence, but may only have one domicile. In outline: at birth a person acquires the domicile of their parents, and can change it by forsaking their former domicile and intending to reside indefinitely at a new place in which they are physically present.
    In product packaging, domicile often refers to the manufacturer information, sometimes located near the UPC or on the side of the package. The domicile can include the manufacturer, distributor, and/or licensee's address, phone number, website, and the country of origin

  13. #13
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    IIRC, you need a license to trap, and I believe the animal must be released where you caught it.

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    It would seem they are within the law.

    Sec. 22-129. Possession of dangerous or deadly weapons; transportation of firearms.

    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person in the city to:


    (1) Have in his possession, except within his own domicile, or carry or use an air-gun, BB gun, gas-operated gun or spring gun, or any instrument or weapon commonly known as a pea shooter, sling shot, wrist rocket sling shot, or any bow made for the purpose of throwing or projecting missiles of any kind by any means whatsoever, whether such instrument is called by any name set forth above or by any other name; (no mention of firearms)


    (2) Have in his possession, except within his own domicile, or carry or use any other deadly weapon, the primary purpose or use of which is as a weapon capable of inflicting death or serious physical injury, including, but not limited to, all of the following:
    a. A knife which has a blade that is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force, and if released is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device;

    b. A knife which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device;

    c. A shuriken or other similar multipointed or star-shaped object made from a hard substance and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when propelled or thrown by human force;

    d. A tekagi, shuko, or other similar object made of a hard substance and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when attached to or fitted upon the hand and propelled by human force;

    e. A nunchaku, zoobow, klackers, kung fu sticks, flail sticks, or other similar objects consisting of two (2) lengths of metal, wood, plastic, or other hard substance connected at one (1) end and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when propelled by human force;

    f. A shinobi-zue or other staff, stick, or pole concealing a knife or blade which may be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical device;

    g. A manrikigusari or other object consisting of a length of rope, chain, leather, cord, or flexible substance, having one (1) or more weighted ends and designed or intended for use as a weapon capable of inflicting bodily harm when propelled by human force;

    h. A sword cane, umbrella sword cane, or similar device;

    i. A blowgun or other object consisting of a pipe or tube through which darts, pellets or other missiles may be propelled by a person's breath. (no mention of firearms)


    (3) Transport in any public place, or have in possession in or upon any vehicle, any of the items listed in subsections (a)(1) or (a)(2), unless the same be carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. (no mention of firearms)


    (4) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law, or, if licensed, carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license. (this mirrors state law)

    MCL 123.1102 only applies to firearms so Novi can restrict the possession of all of those other weapons without falling afoul of state law.

    Bronson
    Thanks Bronson (and Autosurgeon), I was hoping someone would notice that it did not concern "firearms", rather "dangerous weapons", which are not preempted.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  15. #15
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    yes i believe your fine carring your own firearms, but don't carry any ninja weapons! how silly, although i have to admit i'd rather be shot than take a hit from many of the weapons on that list. you could however have an exterminator come out and deal with your ground hogs. some of them do live trapping if that matters to you. stay safe
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 10-01-2010 at 10:39 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Trouble is, that even most knives, the basic ones that you can get at meijers or a gun store, are illegal. We have a long way to go in protecting the RKBA. IMO, it is not gun specific, to me, any one of those weapons on that list represents an infringement, equal to a handgun ban.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I don't see sword anywhere on their list.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Hmmm, I don't see sword anywhere on their list.

    Bronson
    BONZI! Sword it is then

  19. #19
    Regular Member Michigun's Avatar
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    Just an idea here, but you might try contacting Novi animal control and see if they can help you out with pest animals on your property. I've lived in cities where they would come out and setup traps.

  20. #20
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    whatch out Bronson and gloch item h. in the ordanance refers to swords....

    h. A sword cane, umbrella sword cane, or similar device;

    a sword wold be a similar device!

    ninjas need to catch up on the times! nobody uses nunchuks and ninja stars anymore get a gun and use that!

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    whatch out Bronson and gloch item h. in the ordanance refers to swords....

    h. A sword cane, umbrella sword cane, or similar device;

    a sword wold be a similar device!!
    I say they are banning things that appear to be mundane everyday items that conceal a sword. When I carry a sword there is no doubt as to what it is.

    I've actually carried swords of various types and they really are a huge hassle.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  22. #22
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    swords?? really, remind me not to get on your bad side!

  23. #23
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    to bronson

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