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Still confused about OC in cars...

Shell

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
31
Location
Wisconsin, ,
So I've become interested in OCing again (in the city of Madison! yeah!) after a few months of just not doing it at all, but now I remember why I was turned off of it: the issue of cars. I read the WI statutes http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0167.pdf which seemed pretty vague to me actually, and I heard of some unfavorable cases of people having their gun too close to them in the car and the court not agreeing with them, but there still seemed to be debate about it, and the failsafe seemed to be "unloaded, encased, far away as possible from you in the car". And that turns me off a lot, because what if I was violently carjacked? Then the criminal would drive off with not only my car and my kids, but with my unloaded encased gun in the trunk as well. So... what gives?
 

bnhcomputing

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
1,709
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Shell:

I think you understand the law very well. Unloaded and encased is useless and ANY of us who carry run the same risk.

Likewise your choices are simple, carry or not carry. If you do not carry, then you are guaranteed you WILL be a victim if the hypothetical "car jacking" takes place. Carry, and you MIGHT be able to react.

The LAW says nothing about "out of reach" and there is only one non-binding court case that talks about "out of reach" in a vehicle.

Life is a crap shoot. It doesn't matter how the dice land, only how you throw them.
 

Vandil

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
240
Location
Sun Prairie
You can keep something like this though.
16E0201.jpg


Zero reason you cannot keep tools in the car.
 
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otter

New member
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
25
Location
West Bend, Wisconsin, USA
You can keep something like this though.
16E0201.jpg


Zero reason you cannot keep tools in the car.

Just to play devil's advocate, you could be charged for CCW over that knife here in WI.

In fact, with the wording of 941.23 and the relevant case law, you could have almost anything become a concealed weapon if you use it for that purpose and intended it to be a weapon. Now, would charges over, say, a Phillips screwdriver actually stick? Probably not. But that doesn't mean you won't get arrested for it.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Shell:

I think you understand the law very well. Unloaded and encased is useless and ANY of us who carry run the same risk.

Likewise your choices are simple, carry or not carry. If you do not carry, then you are guaranteed you WILL be a victim if the hypothetical "car jacking" takes place. Carry, and you MIGHT be able to react.

The LAW says nothing about "out of reach" and there is only one non-binding court case that talks about "out of reach" in a vehicle.

huh? Did somebody repeal the concealed carry ban and not tell me?

A handgun concealed in a case within reach is concealed - the appeals court has already said so, this has been discussed many times here.
 

Vandil

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
240
Location
Sun Prairie
Just to play devil's advocate, you could be charged for CCW over that knife here in WI.

In fact, with the wording of 941.23 and the relevant case law, you could have almost anything become a concealed weapon if you use it for that purpose and intended it to be a weapon. Now, would charges over, say, a Phillips screwdriver actually stick? Probably not. But that doesn't mean you won't get arrested for it.

Right, I don't keep it velcro'd under the seat and it's dirt encrusted because I use it for gardening. I just toss the HORI-HORI on the floor board right next to the rest of the tools piled up there. It looks right at home. I'm sure if I stabbed the Mc Donalds drive through lady with it over some nuggets I'd be in deep! Just getting stopped for a traffic offense I'm not really worried about it. They usually ask about the axes and chainsaws first!
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
The Fork in Wisconsin Gun Laws, § 941.23 and § 167.31, video link provided.

http://www.vimeo.com/6115265

941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except
a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous
weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Notwithstanding s.
939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not
include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission
warden.
History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.

The burden is on the defendant to prove that he or she is a peace officer and within
the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).

A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
(1986).


To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.

State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).


A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).


There is no statutory or common law privilege for the crime of carrying a concealed
weapon under s. 941.23. State Dundon, 226 Wis. 2d 654, 594 N.W.2d 780 (1999),
97−1423.

Under the facts of the case, the privilege of of self−defense was inapplicable to a
charge of carrying a concealed weapon. State v. Nollie, 2002 WI 4, 249 Wis. 2d 538,
638 N.W.2d 280, 00−0744.

The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises. State
v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056. See also State
v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.

A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.

This section is constitutional as applied in this case. The defendant’s interest in
exercising his right to keep and bear arms for purposes of security by carrying a concealed
weapon in his vehicle does not substantially outweigh the state’s interest in
prohibiting him from carrying a concealed weapon in his vehicle. State v. Fisher,
2006 WI 44, 290 Wis. 2d 121, 714 N.W.2d 495, 04−2989.

Judges are not peace officers authorized to carry concealed weapons. 69 Atty. Gen.
66.



167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and
bows. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this section:
(a) “Aircraft” has the meaning given under s. 114.002 (3).
(b) “Encased” means enclosed in a case that is expressly made
for the purpose of containing a firearm and that is completely
zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part
of the firearm exposed.
[ ... ]
(g) “Unloaded” means any of the following:
1. Having no shell or cartridge in the chamber of a firearm or
in the magazine attached to a firearm.
2. In the case of a cap lock muzzle−loading firearm, having
the cap removed.
3. In the case of a flint lock muzzle−loading firearm, having
the flashpan cleaned of powder.
(h) “Vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (74), and
includes a snowmobile, as defined in s. 340.01 (58a), and an electric
personal assistive mobility device, as defined in s. 340.01
(15pm), except that for purposes of subs. (4) (c) and (cg) and (4m)
“vehicle” has the meaning given for “motor vehicle” in s. 29.001
(57).

(2) PROHIBITIONS; MOTORBOATS AND VEHICLES; HIGHWAYS AND
ROADWAYS.
(a) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may
place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a
motorboat with the motor running, unless the firearm is unloaded
or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying
case.
(b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess
or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle,
unless the firearm is unloaded and encased or unless the bow or
crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.

[ ... ]
(c) A person who violates par. (a) or (b) shall be fined not more
than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 90 days or both.
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
Vandil:
Just be careful if you enter Milwaukee county with such a knife. Milwaukee county ordinance 63.015 prohibits possessionof any knife with a blade longer than 3 inches.
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
Mike:
Please cite the appeals court case you refer to. If it is State v Alloy your comment is misleading. Alloy is an unpublished opinion. Being unpublished it has no judicial precedence in the state of Wisconsin.

809.23(3)
(3) Citation of unpublished opinions.

809.23(3)(a)
(a) An unpublished opinion may not be cited in any court of this state as precedent or authority, except to support a claim of claim preclusion, issue preclusion, or the law of the case, and except as provided in par. (b).

The State Supreme Court did modify this statute in 2008 and allows unpublished opinion to be cited if they have been ruled after July 1, 2009. All unpublished opinion prior to that date are still not allowed to be cited in a legal brief.
 
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Vandil

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
240
Location
Sun Prairie
Vandil:
Just be careful if you enter Milwaukee county with such a knife. Milwaukee county ordinance 63.015 prohibits possessionof any knife with a blade longer than 3 inches.

So if I go to ACE in Milwaukee, buy a HORI-HORI put it in the shopping bag, put the bag on my passenger seat I'm in violation? :banghead:

Here is the Fiskars brand WI product. Little less Knife like but just as sharp.
314HBT4HN0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
 
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Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
If the blade is longer than three inches and you are in possession then you are also in violation of the MKE code.

If it is hidden, you know it and it is within reach then you are in violation of State Statute.

A passenger seat or a shopping bag are inconsequential.

What about the Fiskars' product makes it a "WI product"?
 
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Vandil

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
240
Location
Sun Prairie
Note to self: You are now a criminal every time you drive back from your shared garden plot or parents place and are to lazy to put your gardening/logging crap in the trunk.:uhoh:

Yeah Fiskars is global but
"Fiskars Brands, Inc. was formerly known as Fiskars Consumer Products, Inc. The company was founded in 1984 and is headquartered in Madison, Wisconsin"
 
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Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
huh? Did somebody repeal the concealed carry ban and not tell me?

A handgun concealed in a case within reach is concealed - the appeals court has already said so, this has been discussed many times here.

What has been discussed here and has never been addressed by the appeals court is a legally encased firearm (not otherwise hidden) being within reach. There is no case law regarding such a scenerio.
The cases people love to use as basis for their premise were either an encased firearm hidden from view by being placed inside another container or a firearm laying on the seat without being encased.
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
Note to self: You are now a criminal every time you drive back from your shared garden plot or parents place and are to lazy to put your gardening/logging crap in the trunk.:uhoh:
Tools, a bat, a kitchen knife are not weapons..... Unless when you are pulled over and asked what purpose they serve and you answer "for self defense".. :dude:
 

Vandil

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
240
Location
Sun Prairie
In honor of still being allowed to carry my garden trowel of freedom I've changed my avatar.
 

Nutczak

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
2,165
Location
The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
If the blade is longer than three inches and you are in possession then you are also in violation of the MKE code.

If it is hidden, you know it and it is within reach then you are in violation of State Statute.

A passenger seat or a shopping bag are inconsequential.

What about the Fiskars' product makes it a "WI product"?

So this would make it illegal for a chef to keep his tools in his car with him (knife set)

Nowhere in WI law does it say a firearm needs to be out of reach, please quit proliferating that myth! It is complete and utter BS!!
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
Nutczak:
The discussion is about knives not firearms. The water gets pretty muddy when it comes to knives and other dangerous weapons. The vehicle transport statute 167.31 only applies to firearms, bows and crossbows. Vehicle transport of knives and other dangerous weapons can not use compliance with 167.31 as a defense against 941.23 (my opinion). The conditions that the WSC says defines concealement is 1. The weapon is hidden fron ordinary view. 2.The person knows the weapon is present 3. The weapon is within reach. If all conditions are present the state can prosecute for concealment. If the "dangerous weapon is not a firearm, bow, or crossbow statute 167.31 is moot. As I said, my opinion.
 
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